# Politics in the Oscar memorial list **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 11, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992 "2013-02-11T17:14:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/1 "2013-02-11T17:14:50Z")
The New York Times ran a [story](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/08/movies/awardsseason/even-the-oscar-memorial-list-is-a-focus-of-campaigning.html?_r=0) on Friday about the procedure used to select the people who would be included in the annual tribute to people who had died during the previous year. It seems that there is a lot of behind-the-scenes politics that goes on, including out-and-out campaigning from the representatives of the person in question. The story uses as an example the case of Harry Morgan, a veteran of more than 100 movies including _High Noon_ and _The Ox-Bow Incident_, who was left off the list last year because, according to the Academy’s COO, he had become more known for television than for movies. Morgan’s son, who is quoted in the story, is distraught. Jack Klugman died last year; he appeared, notably, in _Twelve Angry Men_ and _The Days of Wine and Roses_. He too, undeniably, had become more known for television than for movies; will he be included this year? Should he be? If so, will it be seen as a sop for omitting Morgan? And another thing: Andy Griffith, whose roles in _A Face in the Crowd_ and\* No Time for Sergeants\* were career-making. Should he be included, or not? I don’t really want to talk about whether there should be a memorial reel or not. There’s going to be one, so there it is. (I personally think TCM should be commissioned to do it.) I just want to know what people think about the balance of actors, directors, cinematographers, etc. Some people are outraged at the presence of agents; others think they are part of the business and should be included. What are your opinions? ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/2 "2013-02-11T17:31:12Z")
Well, there is some rational thought to this process. There are the Emmy Awards (for television) and of course Grammy’s (for music) and obviously the Oscars for film. Granted, many “stars” have crossed over with perhaps a hit song, or one or two movies, but are mostly known for their TV career - they should be honored by the Emmys. Same for movie stars who might have had a TV show or even been in a band and had a hit song. Let’s take Angela Lansbury - still alive - but she has been on Broadway (a lot) and most likely would be honored at the Tony Awards - but she also starred in Murder She Wrote, so a case could be made for the Emmys - but then again, she has made several hit movies, so Oscars? I could see her being honored at every awards ceremony, as her “hits” have been big hits in all three venues. But Harry Morgan, Jack Klugman and Andy Griffith? I think it is safe to say 90% of the public remember them solely for the television shows they appeared in and would maybe even be surprised to find out they were in films - so if the Oscars do not include them, the Emmys will do a fine job with their memorials. There is only so much time to cover a lot of people who die in any given year. I think it is great they include costume designers, producers, set designers and even agents and screenwriters - there are ample names of people who have _only worked in films_ that should be given notice and not bumped because a famous TV celebrity, or singer, has died who might also have made a single movie or two. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/3 "2013-02-11T17:44:45Z")
I seem to remember that the Oscars included Michael Jackson in the 2004 tribute, did they not? He was in _The Wiz_ and the posthumous _This Is It_ but no one can claim with a straight face that he was well known for his film career. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/4 "2013-02-11T17:55:42Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I seem to remember that the Oscars included Michael Jackson in the 2004 tribute, did they not? He was in _The Wiz_ and the posthumous _This Is It_ but no one can claim with a straight face that he was well known for his film career. The strongest case for his inclusion is the Best Song nomination of “Ben” in 1972. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/5 "2013-02-11T18:07:08Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I seem to remember that the Oscars included Michael Jackson in the 2004 tribute, did they not? He was in _The Wiz_ and the posthumous _This Is It_ but no one can claim with a straight face that he was well known for his film career. Considering he died in 2009, it was probably not the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/6 "2013-02-11T19:11:00Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Considering he died in 2009, it was probably not the right thing to do. :smack: LOL I always remember that he died while I was at a convention in Anaheim and it was all over the local news. Now I just have to learn to remember that convention was in '09 and not '03. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/7 "2013-02-11T19:31:53Z")
Didn’t **Cory Haim** get left out the year he died? Or was it\*\* Brad Renfro\*\* (or both of them?) Not sure why they’d be left out unless it was due to their legal and drug issues. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/8 "2013-02-11T20:54:51Z")
There also seems to be some confusion about whether the list should include people who died in the previous calendar year (the period for which they are awarding films) or in the year since the last awards show. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/9 "2013-02-11T21:03:46Z")
If Morgan, Klugman, or Griffith had never appeared on television, would their film work by itself have entitled them to a place on the film tribute? If so, they should be included. If not, they shouldn’t. (I don’t know enough about movies–or about standards for inclusion in “those we lost”–to know the answer, but that is the question that should be asked. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/10 "2013-02-12T02:43:48Z")
I think that is an excellent rule. And I definitely think Harry Morgan should have been included; if he had never done either Dragnet or M_A_S\*H, he still would have been known as a character actor with a significant career. Same with Angela Lansbury: That a generation knows her from Murder, She Wrote doesn’t negate her distinguished movie career, when the time comes. Klugman and Griffith, no; and Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett should never have been considered. James Garner? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/11 "2013-02-12T03:31:14Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > Klugman and Griffith, no; and Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett should never have been considered. As stated unthread, MJ was an Oscar nominee for Ben. Being a nominee should mean automatic inclusion in the In Memorium presentation. Fawcett wasn’t a nominee but she did get a lot of acclaim, and a Golden Globe nod, for the movie version of Extremities. She also had close to twenty other film credits (including Logan’s Run). I personally think they should just include everybody with a decent resume, regardless of the medium they’re best known for. How much time could it really add? 30-45 seconds at the most? ---
**Author:** ![Rollo\_Tomasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Rollo\_Tomasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rollo_Tomasi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/12 "2013-02-12T03:58:43Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > I think that is an excellent rule. And I definitely think Harry Morgan should have been included; if he had never done either Dragnet or M_A_S\*H, he still would have been known as a character actor with a significant career. Same with Angela Lansbury: That a generation knows her from Murder, She Wrote doesn’t negate her distinguished movie career, when the time comes. I agree that Morgan should have been included, but he and Angela Lansbury aren’t in exactly the same situation. She’s a three-time Oscar nominee and therefore pretty much a shoo-in to be included. I can’t imagine that they’d leave out an actor who was actually nominated. I’d be interested in knowing whether a nominee or even winner in any category was ever left out of the memorial reel. Production designer? Sound editor? Short film director? > [@Bob Ducca](#): > > As stated unthread, MJ was an Oscar nominee for Ben. Being a nominee should mean automatic inclusion in the In Memorium presentation. Jackson didn’t write the song, so he wasn’t a nominee. Walter Scharf and Don Black were the nominees for “Ben.” ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/13 "2013-02-12T14:54:21Z")
> [@Rollo\_Tomasi](#): > > I’d be interested in knowing whether a nominee or even winner in any category was ever left out of the memorial reel. Production designer? Sound editor? Short film director? This is exactly the kind of research I love to do, but unfortunately, I’m actually working. ☹ Surprising as it may seem, the memorial reel has been around since only 1994. I’ve never missed the Oscars since I was a child, and it seems a fixture since time immemorial. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/14 "2013-02-12T15:22:04Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > I personally think they should just include everybody with a decent resume, regardless of the medium they’re best known for. How much time could it really add? 30-45 seconds at the most? The article mentions “this year’s especially large group of about 500 candidates” which seems like a really long memorial segment if everyone is included, so some winnowing is necessary. Upthread someone mentioned that any previous nominee should be included. What if that’s used as a criterion? What if any previous member of the Academy is included? How many names does that result in? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/15 "2013-02-12T16:06:05Z")
The Academy had previously decided that when Angela Lansbury died, she wouldn’t be included in the memorial. Then she laid down the queen of hearts and they had no choice but to comply. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/16 "2013-02-12T16:38:48Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > James Garner? When he dies, absolutely. He had a great film career. When I saw his name here, I thought maybe he had died and I’d missed it. Be careful about posting stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/17 "2013-02-12T16:48:35Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > The Academy had previously decided that when Angela Lansbury died, she wouldn’t be included in the memorial. Then she laid down the queen of hearts and they had no choice but to comply. [Many are nominated, few win](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Lansbury). Having said that, she was nominated at the age of freakin’ 18 for a brilliant and taut performance. There are a ton of Academy members who aren’t mentioned who die in obscurity each year. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/18 "2013-02-12T17:47:59Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > When he dies, absolutely. He had a great film career. > When I saw his name here, I thought maybe he had died and I’d missed it. Be careful about posting stuff like that. Sorry. :eek: It didn’t occur to me that anyone would think he’d died; we were discussing theoreticals like Angela Lansbury, and I mentioned him as an example of someone who was well known for television but also had a strong film career. The other people I can think of right now who had both significant TV and major movie careers: Doris Day, Michael Douglas, Sally Field, Tom Hanks. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/19 "2013-02-12T17:55:06Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > Sorry. :eek: It didn’t occur to me that anyone would think he’d died; we were discussing theoreticals like Angela Lansbury, and I mentioned him as an example of someone who was well known for television but also had a strong film career. The other people I can think of right now who had both significant TV and major movie careers: Doris Day, Michael Douglas, Sally Field, Tom Hanks. Not to worry about mentioning Garner, just that in interviews I’ve seen with him he’s clearly lost a few steps (and those are probably a few years old now, too). I’m a bit of a fan; of course he’s gotten older, but it’s sad to think of him frail. He’s kind of the opposite of Douglas, Field, and Hanks, in a way. They all did their TV work when they were younger and then moved into films. When I think of the classic Garner roles, it’s stuff like _The Americanization of Emily_ and _The Great Escape_, and then shifting to TV to do _The Rockford Files_. In truth, he probably stayed active in both for most of his career. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992/20 "2013-02-12T18:00:16Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > As stated unthread, MJ was an Oscar nominee for Ben. Being a nominee should mean automatic inclusion in the In Memorium presentation. A hell of a lot of people get nominated for one Academy Award. If you included all of the ones who’d died, you’d barely notice the faces as they zipped by, and even if you did a lot of people would say “what the…” People in 2062 will be confused as hell when they put up Eminem’s face, and he actually WON an Oscar. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-in-the-oscar-memorial-list/649992.md?page=2)