# Poll about taking the lord's name in vain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590 "2009-04-19T02:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/181 "2009-04-20T22:41:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dunno about him, but I might start suggesting we meet at a different house. All things being considered, of course (a big-screen TV can make up for a bit of imposed self-censorship), but the fact that people like me aren’t welcome in a place is a bit of a deterrent, even if people only slightly different from me in vocabulary and/or personality are fine. > > Which is to say, merely making the request, however politely, is an imposition and an unsociable statement. Which may or may not tip the balance between interaction and noninteraction, depending on other factors. Well, yeah. I mean I don’t hang out around a lot of overly sensitive religious types. Most of my friends are atheists, and pretty disreputable ones to boot. The few Christians I know in real life know who I am and expect the occasional “Jesus fucking christ on a goddammed pogo stick.” But if I went to someone’s house and their religious mom was there, I don’t see that the request is that big a deal. I’d probably also say “Excuse me, where’s the bathroom?” rather than “Man, I’ve gotta piss.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/182 "2009-04-20T22:45:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It isn’t necessarily a religious practice. Yes it is, and it’s not the same thing as being vegan. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/183 "2009-04-20T22:47:21Z")
Please, Lord, forgive me for not reading all four of the 9-yard pages.:dubious: I don’t mind filtering my speech according to the people I’m around. My wife works with a very religious boss, and she has fallen into saying, “Oh, my word!” I first heard of minced oaths, though, as a little boy. My babysitter reported me to my evil dad for saying “darn.” Since then I’ve found out that a whole lot of “allowable” words are really **taking the Lord’s name in vain.** Zounds, Gorblimey, blimey, Holy Toledo, Holy cats, Egad, YeGads, Gosh, Golly, Oh my Ford, Hot Grammar, Doggonnit, Dagnabbit, Dead Rabbit, Mother of Pearl, Sweet Mercy Magruder, Cheese and Crackers, Jeez O Pete, and on and on, are all taking God’s name in vain according to some folks. Once you get into this finger-wagging, you can’t make exceptions for clever evasions. You can’t escape the sin by changing a few letters, to Zogbammit. Wait a minute, though. What if you really mean it? If you say, “Oh, God!” when you mean, “Oh, God, help me!” that’s not in vain. It’s a prayer. Surely, that’s no sin. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/184 "2009-04-20T22:50:56Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Wait a minute, though. What if you really mean it? If you say, “Oh, God!” when you mean, “Oh, God, help me!” that’s not in vain. It’s a prayer. Surely, that’s no sin. Darn my socks, don’t you know that nothing is “surely” not a sin, given a hyperactive enough religious sensibility? Holey rusted metal Batman, you should know better. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/185 "2009-04-20T22:52:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So what? Assuming the person isn’t otherwise acting like a dick, what does it cost me to avoid a term he finds offensive, even if I don’t agree with the offensiveness of the term? What does it cost the other person to refrain from policing my “sins.” As long as I’m not harming or insulting them, what business is it of theirs if I choose to ignore one of their religious commandments? How is that hostile to them? why on earth are they offended by it? > [@](#): > > Also, huge bonus irony points for you calling someone else an offenderato. Meta irony points to you for insinuating that someone else is hypocritical for it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/186 "2009-04-20T23:05:30Z")
Please tell me where my logic fails. Per the OP, someone asks you politely not to take the lord’s name in vain in his presence. First, it is logical to infer that this person is a religious person. 2nd, it is logical to infer that their comment is in reference to the 3rd Commandment, [Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…](http://www.all-god.com/the-ten-commandments-of-GOD.shtml) because it is very nearly a verbatim iteration of the King James Bible version of same. 3rd, the request is the equivalent of asking you to obey the 3rd Commandment in their presence. 4th, asking you to obey one of their commandments is asking you to adhere, in practice if not belief, to one of their religious rules. Putting aside how any of us would respond to this request, is this an unfair or incorrect interpretation of the request? If so, where is the misinterpretation? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/187 "2009-04-20T23:07:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What does it cost the other person to refrain from policing my “sins.” As long as I’m not harming or insulting them, what business is it of theirs if I choose to ignore one of their religious commandments? How is that hostile to them? why on earth are they offended by it? Why are you assuming this is about your soul? Maybe - and this is a radical idea, I know - they just don’t like hearing that sort of language? Maybe it’s just because they consider it disrespectful to a person for whom they hold a lot of respect? Maybe it just makes them uncomfortable? No, wait, sorry. They’re _religious_. And as we all know, religious people _always_ have an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/188 "2009-04-20T23:13:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes [keeping kosher] is [necessarily a religious practice] If it is, then it’s not analogous to not saying “goddammit.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/189 "2009-04-20T23:15:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The major difference I see is that, in the situation described in the OP, the person is attempting to define the terms of your interaction with him. As one party in that interaction, he has the right to at least attempt to define that interaction. In your hypothetical, he’s trying to define the terms of your interaction with someone else. As someone not involved in that interaction, he has no right to dictate its terms. Both hypotheticals involve the other party trying to dictate the terms of your relationship with someone else. In the 2nd case, he’s attempting to dictate your interaction with you SO, in the 1st, he’s trying to dictate (what he imagines is) your interaction with God. In neither case is he personally involved except as a witness. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/190 "2009-04-20T23:16:31Z")
I absolutely despise my oldest brother, who is the person in my life most likely to make such a request. If he were the one making the request, I would simply ignore it, because I don’t care if I ever talk to him again. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/191 "2009-04-20T23:17:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Both hypotheticals involve the other party trying to dictate the terms of your relationship with someone else. In the 2nd case, he’s attempting to dictate your interaction with you SO, in the 1st, he’s trying to dictate (what he imagines is) your interaction with God. In neither case is he personally involved except as a witness. Stipulate a person who isn’t trying to dictate your interaction with God, but rather is made irrationally uncomfortable by certain buzzes, clicks, and sibilant noises that comprise phrases like “Jesus Christ, it’s hot!” or the like. Does that change your answer? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/192 "2009-04-20T23:21:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why are you assuming this is about your soul? Maybe - and this is a radical idea, I know - they just don’t like hearing that sort of language? Maybe it’s just because they consider it disrespectful to a person for whom they hold a lot of respect? Maybe it just makes them uncomfortable? Seeing guys kiss might make them uncomfortable too. So what? How is it any of their business? > [@](#): > > No, wait, sorry. They’re _religious_. And as we all know, religious people _always_ have an agenda. For Christ’s sake, would you and **JThunder** get off this angle? I send my kids to a Catholic school, for fuck’s sake. I’ve been sleeping with a religious person for nigh on 20 years. I’m not **Der Trihs**. Get your theist-tolerant brownie points from someone who’s actually hostile to religion. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/193 "2009-04-20T23:23:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I absolutely despise my oldest brother, who is the person in my life most likely to make such a request. If he were the one making the request, I would simply ignore it, because I don’t care if I ever talk to him again. Upon further thought, that makes me sound like a jackass who is allowing my distaste for my brother to dictate my own actions. Upon further further thought, I remember that I am, in fact, a jackass. But since I assay not to be deliberately a jackass, I’ll say that if I’m in the person’s home, I’ll comply, but otherwise will demur. Since I am in not the practice of saying “goddamnit,” it’s not likely to ever be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/194 "2009-04-20T23:24:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Both hypotheticals involve the other party trying to dictate the terms of your relationship with someone else. In the 2nd case, he’s attempting to dictate your interaction with you SO, in the 1st, he’s trying to dictate (what he imagines is) your interaction with God. In neither case is he personally involved except as a witness. You really think so? Okay, try this one. Your parents are divorced. The divorce was ugly, and mom and dad never speak to each other under any circumstances, but you still have a good relationship with both parents. When you’re with your mom, she’s constantly insulting and belittling your dad. You still love your him, though, and don’t like hearing him run down like that, so you ask your mom not to talk about your dad like that around you. Are you trying to dictate the terms of your mother’s interaction with your father? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/195 "2009-04-20T23:26:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Stipulate a person who isn’t trying to dictate your interaction with God, but rather is made irrationally uncomfortable by certain buzzes, clicks, and sibilant noises that comprise phrases like “Jesus Christ, it’s hot!” or the like. > > Does that change your answer? This is a ridiculous hypothetical, but the answer is no. I would find it hilarious and do it constantly. Has anybody answered the hypothetical about whether they’d put down their BLT if a Muslim asked them to? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/196 "2009-04-20T23:27:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Both hypotheticals involve the other party trying to dictate the terms of your relationship with someone else. In the 2nd case, he’s attempting to dictate your interaction with you SO, in the 1st, he’s trying to dictate (what he imagines is) your interaction with God. In neither case is he personally involved except as a witness. Welllll… you _are_ interacting with them, because they’re observing you. Your actions have an effect on them, certainly in the sense of changing the set of things they’ve experienced and observed. When you do something that they believe offends their god, such as cursing, or interacting with gay people in public, or being gay, or possibly being black or a woman, then it’s very much like you are insulting their mother. Only moreso. Of course, at some point we have to make a value judgement whether their goodwill is worth the self-insult of play-acting respect for their token deity. Often it is for small-scale play-acting. And apparently some people think that the self-insult is minor or nonexistent (which is kind of an insult to those for whom it is important, at least as much as dismissing somebody’s aversion to hearing God not-worshipped is). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/197 "2009-04-20T23:38:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You really think so? Okay, try this one. Your parents are divorced. The divorce was ugly, and mom and dad never speak to each other under any circumstances, but you still have a good relationship with both parents. When you’re with your mom, she’s constantly insulting and belittling your dad. You still love your him, though, and don’t like hearing him run down like that, so you ask your mom not to talk about your dad like that around you. > > Are you trying to dictate the terms of your mother’s interaction with your father? Heh. This is not that hypothetical for me. I don’t try to tell my mom how to feel about my dad, especially not when I’m in her home. This hypothetical is not really on point, though, because the father is not present in this scenario. God is presumably present in _any_ scenario. A more accurate analogy would be me try to tell her what to say to my dad on the phone. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/198 "2009-04-20T23:40:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Welllll… you _are_ interacting with them, because they’re observing you. Your actions have an effect on them, certainly in the sense of changing the set of things they’ve experienced and observed. > > When you do something that they believe offends their god, such as cursing, or interacting with gay people in public, or being gay, or possibly being black or a woman, then it’s very much like you are insulting their mother. Only moreso. > > Of course, at some point we have to make a value judgement whether their goodwill is worth the self-insult of play-acting respect for their token deity. Often it is for small-scale play-acting. And apparently some people think that the self-insult is minor or nonexistent (which is kind of an insult to those for whom it is important, at least as much as dismissing somebody’s aversion to hearing God not-worshipped is). I know persons who are offended by being married to a white woman. Shall I avoid kissing Mrs. Rhymer in public places to avoid offending them? (Assuming of course that these persons are not Klansmen carrying guns and nooses looking for a nigger and a tree.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/199 "2009-04-20T23:41:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Seeing guys kiss might make them uncomfortable too. So what? How is it any of their business? It’s not their business. The language I use, _when I’m in a conversation with them_, is, in fact, their business. > [@](#): > > For Christ’s sake, would you and **JThunder** get off this angle? I send my kids to a Catholic school, for fuck’s sake. I’ve been sleeping with a religious person for nigh on 20 years. I’m not **Der Trihs**. Get your theist-tolerant brownie points from someone who’s actually hostile to religion. I don’t know anything about your relationship with your wife or your kids. All I know is how you come across on this board, which is as someone who is relentlessly hostile to anyone who believes in God. If your board persona doesn’t match your real life persona, that’s fine. But I’m not talking to your real life persona. I’m talking to your board persona. > [@](#): > > This is a ridiculous hypothetical, but the answer is no. I would find it hilarious and do it constantly. I earlier alluded to **Left Hand** ’s strong needle phobia. If you knew him in real life, would you constantly show him pictures of people getting injections, just to fuck with his irrational reaction to the subject? If not, why would you respect his irrational feelings about needles, but not somone else’s irrational feelings about God? > [@](#): > > Has anybody answered the hypothetical about whether they’d put down their BLT if a Muslim asked them to? Depending on the circumstance, yes. If it’s a random Muslim I’ve never met before, who just walks up to me in a restaurant and demands I drop the bacon, then no. If it’s a friend or co-worker who wants to have lunch, and he asks nicely beforehand if I’d avoid pork products, sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/200 "2009-04-20T23:44:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Has anybody answered the hypothetical about whether they’d put down their BLT if a Muslim asked them to? First of all, most muslims don’t care if you eat pork, they just can’t eat it themselves. Secondly, if some crazy fundamentalist muslim told me to put down a BLT I wouldn’t do it. I want my BLT. I paid for the BLT. At that point it’s a big deal for me. Refraining from some phrase when there are dozens of phrases that accomplish the same thing just isn’t that important. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590.md?page=11)