# Poll about taking the lord's name in vain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590 "2009-04-19T02:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/201 "2009-04-20T23:44:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Heh. This is not that hypothetical for me. I don’t try to tell my mom how to feel about my dad, especially not when I’m in her home. But you’re not telling her how to feel about your dad. You’re just asking her not to express those feelings around you. You do understand the difference, right? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/202 "2009-04-20T23:46:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I earlier alluded to **Left Hand** ’s strong needle phobia. If you knew him in real life, would you constantly show him pictures of people getting injections, just to fuck with his irrational reaction to the subject? If not, why would you respect his irrational feelings about needles, but not somone else’s irrational feelings about God? FWIW, I’ve encountered a few people that do a lesser version of this (tell their worst needle stories when they find out I have a phobia, for instance). I worry that expressing my opinion of them here would earn me a warning by analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/203 "2009-04-20T23:53:01Z")
I’m trying to figure out the guidelines I use when deciding whether to comply with an irrational request. I think the answers to the following questions must all be yes: 1. Is the request couched in polite language? 2. Does complying with the request have negligible material, social, and pyschological cost to me? 3. Is the requester making the request out of a moral or aesthetic background that I find innocuous? 4. Is the requester someone that I find tolerable in other respects? 5. Is this request an exception from the norm from this requester, rather than the norm? A single “no” answer might be enough to persuade me not to comply; but if they’re all “yes,” then I’ll probably comply. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/204 "2009-04-20T23:56:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s not their business. The language I use, _when I’m in a conversation with them_, is, in fact, their business. > > I don’t know anything about your relationship with your wife or your kids. All I know is how you come across on this board, which is as someone who is relentlessly hostile to anyone who believes in God. If your board persona doesn’t match your real life persona, that’s fine. But I’m not talking to your real life persona. I’m talking to your board persona. I have no such board persona. I have never been hostile to people just for believing in God. I have never been hostile to religion. You are conflating me with other posters. I can sometimes be tough on specific factual _claims_, if they are demonstrably false or falsifiable, but I am not hostile to non-falsifiable claims, or to religion and religious people in general. You are probably conflating me with other posters. I guarantee you can’t back up your characterization of my posting history with cites. > [@](#): > > I earlier alluded to **Left Hand** ’s strong needle phobia. If you knew him in real life, would you constantly show him pictures of people getting injections, just to fuck with his irrational reaction to the subject? If not, why would you respect his irrational feelings about needles, but not somone else’s irrational feelings about God? A phobia is a psychiatric condition. Religious indignation is not. The psychological effects are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/205 "2009-04-21T00:00:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I have no such board persona. I have never been hostile to people just for believing in God. I have never been hostile to religion. You are conflating me with other posters. I can sometimes be tough on specific factual _claims_, if they are demonstrably false or falsifiable, but I am not hostile to non-falsifiable claims, or to religion and religious people in general. You are probably conflating me with other posters. I guarantee you can’t back up your characterization of my posting history with cites. > > A phobia is a psychiatric condition. Religious indignation is not. The psychological effects are not the same. Dio, though I generally agree with you, and I certainly agree with you on this issue, I have a question. A few months ago I posted about a coworker who wanted to stop checking my blood sugar at my desk (I am diabetic) because of her needle phobia. Shoudl I have accommodated her request? If so, how is this different? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/206 "2009-04-21T00:07:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But you’re not telling her how to feel about your dad. You’re just asking her not to express those feelings around you. You do understand the difference, right? I don’t believe there’s a meaningful difference, but no, I don’t believe it’s my place to tell people how to express their feelings. There’s no point. Tell them not to say it doesn’t stop them from feeling it, and speech can’t hurt me. If I really think they’re wrong, I’m more inclined to try to engage them on the feelings themselves, not the mere expression of them. If I think they’re unreachable or irredeemable about something, then I believe the appropriate response is to end (or at least minimize) my association with them. Asking them “politely” not to honestly express themselves does not make me any more comfortable with them, and I think it’s passive-aggressive. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/207 "2009-04-21T00:25:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Dio, though I generally agree with you, and I certainly agree with you on this issue, I have a question. A few months ago I posted about a coworker who wanted to stop checking my blood sugar at my desk (I am diabetic) because of her needle phobia. Shoudl I have accommodated her request? If so, how is this different? Well, the obvious difference is that you have a compelling medical need. Accomodation of other people’s phobias only goes so far. You don’t have to endanger your own health for it. It’s also clear that this is a conflict (a medical need vs. pschological discomfort) which (I am assuming) could be easily resolved by one of you going somewhere else…that someone being the one who is not risking going into diabetic shock if she doesn’t monitor her blood sugar. I might also point out that she has the ability to alter her field of vision with a simple operation of neck muscles. It raises a question, though. There must be diabetic people with needle phobias. What do they do? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/208 "2009-04-21T00:30:51Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I know persons who are offended by being married to a white woman. Shall I avoid kissing Mrs. Rhymer in public places to avoid offending them? > > (Assuming of course that these persons are not Klansmen carrying guns and nooses looking for a nigger and a tree.) I said, you’d have to make a value judgement. How important is it to you to show your affection to Mrs. Rhymer in front of these people? How important is it not to offend them? (I think you tacitly admitted that circumstances matter by referencing the armed Klansmen.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/209 "2009-04-21T00:32:29Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > If you have no problem taking the lord’s name in vain, but did so around somebody who politely requested that you not do it in their presence, would you comply? Yes. To do otherwise would be rude. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/210 "2009-04-21T00:33:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It raises a question, though. There must be diabetic people with needle phobias. What do they do? As a type two diabetes person who currently just has to lancet myself, not inject myself… …we (I) try to lose weight in a hurry and stave off the inevitable as long as possible. When it ceases to be possible, I anticipate problems on the order of imperilling my life by avoiding the medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/211 "2009-04-21T00:38:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t believe there’s a meaningful difference… Really? If I say, “I don’t want to discuss this subject,” that’s the same as saying, “You shouldn’t have an opinion on this subject”? > [@](#): > > …but no, I don’t believe it’s my place to tell people how to express their feelings. There’s no point. Tell them not to say it doesn’t stop them from feeling it, and speech can’t hurt me. Okay, you’re a man of iron, unaffected by the petty squabbles of lesser mortals around you. But, you can at least understand that other people react differently, right? That some people find it distressing to hear people they care about being run down? This concept is not entirely alien to you? Having mastered that concept, can you not see how, to a devout Christian, this attitude might extend to Jesus himself, and how they might similarly be distressed to hear you insult someone in whom they have considerable emotional attachment? > [@](#): > > If I really think they’re wrong, I’m more inclined to try to engage them on the feelings themselves, not the mere expression of them. If I think they’re unreachable or irredeemable about something, then I believe the appropriate response is to end (or at least minimize) my association with them. Asking them “politely” not to honestly express themselves does not make me any more comfortable with them, and I think it’s passive-aggressive. So, your position here is that if someone believes something you find objectionable, you must either seek to correct them, or cut them out of your life? There’s no middle ground, where there’s enough stuff you like about the person, that’s its easier to just avoid the stuff you don’t like? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/212 "2009-04-21T00:49:33Z")
You know what? Let me make an adjustment to my earlier hypothetical. Instead of your parents getting divorced, let’s say it’s you and your wife. And you’re very much the wronged party in the break-up. You’re understandably and justifiably angry over it, and are not shy about explaining why. You daughter (for our purposes, let’s suppose that she’s an adult at this point) asks you not to tear her down, because even though you have every right to be pissed, it makes her uncomfortable to hear her mother talked about like that. Do you avoid the topic around your daughter, out of respect for her discomfort, or do you continue to cut loose on your ex, because no one has a right to tell you how to feel? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/213 "2009-04-21T00:56:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You know what? Let me make an adjustment to my earlier hypothetical. Instead of your parents getting divorced, let’s say it’s you and your wife. And you’re very much the wronged party in the break-up. You’re understandably and justifiably angry over it, and are not shy about explaining why. You daughter (for our purposes, let’s suppose that she’s an adult at this point) asks you not to tear her down, because even though you have every right to be pissed, it makes her uncomfortable to hear her mother talked about like that. > > Do you avoid the topic around your daughter, out of respect for her discomfort, or do you continue to cut loose on your ex, because no one has a right to tell you how to feel? I wouldn’t have to be asked. You’re talking about children, now, not adults. That fundamentally alters the hypothetical. Of course you behave differently around children than adults. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/214 "2009-04-21T01:07:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Really? If I say, “I don’t want to discuss this subject,” that’s the same as saying, “You shouldn’t have an opinion on this subject”? I believe that saying “you shouldn’t say X” is the same as saying “you shouldn’t say what you think.” I WANT people to say what they think. > [@](#): > > Okay, you’re a man of iron, unaffected by the petty squabbles of lesser mortals around you. Not unaffected, just pragmatic about how to address it, nand how much power I really have over it. > [@](#): > > But, you can at least understand that other people react differently, right? That some people find it distressing to hear people they care about being run down? This concept is not entirely alien to you? > > Having mastered that concept, can you not see how, to a devout Christian, this attitude might extend to Jesus himself, and how they might similarly be distressed to hear you insult someone in whom they have considerable emotional attachment? If they’re distressed by it, then they don’t really have any faith. How can God/Jesus be harmed by my words? What am I even saying about God that’s insulting? How is simply saying the name “running him down?” > [@](#): > > So, your position here is that if someone believes something you find objectionable, you must either seek to correct them, or cut them out of your life? There’s no middle ground, where there’s enough stuff you like about the person, that’s its easier to just avoid the stuff you don’t like? I’m not suggesting I would do that for just ANYTHING they say that’s objectionable, but for cases where they have feelings which are so fundamentally counter to my own ethos that I can’t in good conscience ignore it. even if they don’t talk about it. Could you remain friends with someone who you know is a neo-Nazi even if they never say a word about it in your presence? For stuff I just think is objectionable, but not ethically uncountenanceable (like, say, being a Packer fan), I can hang, and not die because they’re wearing a [del]Favre[/del] Rodgers jersey. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/215 "2009-04-21T01:26:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wouldn’t have to be asked. You’re talking about children, now, not adults. That fundamentally alters the hypothetical. Of course you behave differently around children than adults. I think there’s a game, set, match in here somewhere. Lemme see if I can find it. > [@Miller in the post you quoted](#): > > for our purposes, let’s suppose that she’s an adult at this point and > [@Diogenes to Miller earlier](#): > > Learn how to read. I said just the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/216 "2009-04-21T01:39:43Z")
Even if she was an adult, I still wouldn’t have to be asked. It would not be in my personality to trash my kids’ mom in front of them. I still dn’t think it’s comprable, though, because saying “Jesus” or “God” doesn’t trash or insult anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/217 "2009-04-21T01:52:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Even if she was an adult, I still wouldn’t have to be asked. It would not be in my personality to trash my kids’ mom in front of them. Why on Earth not? If you think your ex is a shrewish hell beast, why shouldn’t you say exactly that? Why does it suddenly matter what anyone around you thinks about what you say? You aren’t suddenly taking into account how someone else feels about the language you use, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/218 "2009-04-21T01:56:45Z")
To SOME people though, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/219 "2009-04-21T01:57:11Z")
I’m taking into account the potential for emotional harm. There is no such potential for invoking the names of deities. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/220 "2009-04-21T02:01:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > To SOME people though, it is. I don’t think so. How is saying the name of a deity injurious or insulting to that deity? How can an impervious god be compared to a vulnerable human being? There is no insult to anything or anybody in saying the words “God” or “Jesus Christ.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590.md?page=12)