# Poll about taking the lord's name in vain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590 "2009-04-19T02:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/161 "2009-04-20T21:56:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I certainly moderate my language around not only people who ask me to, but also around people who I suspect would appreciate it. > > On the other hand, try on this analogy: > > A neighbor kisses his wife goodbye when he leaves for work each morning. One day, he sees you kissing your same-sex partner goodbye when you leave for work in the morning. His six-year-old son sees you do it. He makes a request couched in polite language: “I’m really sorry, but my religion does not condone homosexuality, and I’m not ready to have that conversation yet with my son. Would you mind terribly not kissing your partern goodbye where my son can see you?” > > In that situation, I’d be furious, and I’d probably refuse to comply. In my gut I feel tehre’s a relevant difference, but I can’t find it. > > Thoughts? The neighbor’s asking you to do something he does not do himself. Also, asking you to refrain from an easily replaceable phrase isn’t that big a deal. Asking you to refrain from showing affection to your loved one is huge imposition and one no one has the right to make. I don’t refrain from epithets because I feel someone’s religious beliefs are true. I refrain because it’s not that big a deal. I don’t say fuck in front of the elderly or at work, even though I curse like a fucking sailor with my buddies. It just isn’t that big an issue. Another analogy: If a stranger drops something and their hands are full, I’ll pick it up for them. Why not? But that doesn’t mean I’m helping them move. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/162 "2009-04-20T21:57:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Diogenes** , it appears to me that you’ve been engaging in a Christian practice in this thread–namely, I haven’t seen you once take the Lord’s name in vain in this thread. Is that correct, that you’ve been practicing a tenet of the Christian faith here? Am I further correct that for many hours a night you continue to practice not only this tenet of the CHristian faith, but also some key tenets of other faiths (not eating shellfish, not eating pork, not drinking alcohol, not engaging in extramarital sex, etc.)? Again, if I’m incorrect, how so? Not doing something 24 hours a day is not the same as “refraining” from it. Don’t be ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/163 "2009-04-20T21:59:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I certainly moderate my language around not only people who ask me to, but also around people who I suspect would appreciate it. > > On the other hand, try on this analogy: > > A neighbor kisses his wife goodbye when he leaves for work each morning. One day, he sees you kissing your same-sex partner goodbye when you leave for work in the morning. His six-year-old son sees you do it. He makes a request couched in polite language: “I’m really sorry, but my religion does not condone homosexuality, and I’m not ready to have that conversation yet with my son. Would you mind terribly not kissing your partern goodbye where my son can see you?” > > In that situation, I’d be furious, and I’d probably refuse to comply. In my gut I feel tehre’s a relevant difference, but I can’t find it. > > Thoughts? This strikes me as exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/164 "2009-04-20T22:00:35Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The neighbor’s asking you to do something he does not do himself. Also, asking you to refrain from an easily replaceable phrase isn’t that big a deal. Asking you to refrain from showing affection to your loved one is huge imposition and one no one has the right to make. Ah, but my analogy was chosen carefully. The person asking you not to say “Jesus Christ!” might say, “Jiminy Cricket!”; instead of “God!” they might say, “Gosh!” I think these are analogous to kissing your OS spouse while asking others not to kiss their same-sex spouse. And you could just as easily kiss your spouse inside the doorway instead of outside; it’d be a terribly small imposition to comply with the request. But I still wouldn’t do it. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not doing something 24 hours a day is not the same as “refraining” from it. Don’t be ridiculous. What’s the difference–the motivation for failing to engage in the act? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/165 "2009-04-20T22:01:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a pathetic attempt at a gotcha. It’s engaging in **A** religious practice, ok? **Dio** , I cited three separate occasions in which you declared that refraining from the use of God’s name was equivalent to practicing the religion. Not “A religious practice,” but the religion itself. Those were your own words. > [@](#): > > I never said that engaging in **A** religious practice made you a member of that religion. Right, which is why I took great care not accuse you of such a thing. Rather, I pointed out that you equated it to the practice of a religion and refused to touch that other issue (i.e. whether doing so made you a member of said religion). ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/166 "2009-04-20T22:02:20Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The neighbor’s asking you to do something he does not do himself. Also, asking you to refrain from an easily replaceable phrase isn’t that big a deal. Asking you to refrain from showing affection to your loved one is huge imposition and one no one has the right to make. > > I don’t refrain from epithets because I feel someone’s religious beliefs are true. I refrain because it’s not that big a deal. I don’t say fuck in front of the elderly or at work, even though I curse like a fucking sailor with my buddies. It just isn’t that big an issue. > > Another analogy: If a stranger drops something and their hands are full, I’ll pick it up for them. Why not? But that doesn’t mean I’m helping them move. Asking me to refrain from a generally acceptable term that I use all the time is a huge imposition. I’m not sure what you mean by "The neighbor’s asking you to do something he does not do himself. " ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/167 "2009-04-20T22:02:48Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The neighbor’s asking you to do something he does not do himself. Also, asking you to refrain from an easily replaceable phrase isn’t that big a deal. Asking you to refrain from showing affection to your loved one is huge imposition and one no one has the right to make. > > I don’t refrain from epithets because I feel someone’s religious beliefs are true. I refrain because it’s not that big a deal. Whether it’s a big deal is not really the issue. A small amount of rudeness is still rudeness. The safety of my soul is none of their business. Who the hell are they to try to police what they think are my “sins?” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/168 "2009-04-20T22:05:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What’s the difference–the motivation for failing to engage in the act? The lack of any conscious intent to AVOID the act. Is keeping kosher a religious practice, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/169 "2009-04-20T22:07:36Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > **Dio** , I cited three separate occasions in which you declared that refraining from the use of God’s name was equivalent to practicing the religion. Not “A religious practice,” but the religion itself. Those were your own words. You’re parsing a distinction which is absolutely lost on me. What’s the difference between practicing a religion and engaging in religious practice? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/170 "2009-04-20T22:11:31Z")
Am I allowed to ask them to stop making collective statements regarding religious belief? At my mother’s house, I am not allowed to question or criticize God, much less take his name in vain. However, she regularly says group prayers including statements like “We thank you, God” with me in the room. She takes it as an insult if I try and leave the room first, without sparing a thought for the fact it’s an insult to me that she is ignoring and dismissing my theological opinions and speaking for me as sharing hers. It pisses me off. I feel that it’s _well_ within my rights to start taking the name of God in vain and making rude comments about her religion given the aforementioned rude dismissals of my belief that she regularly makes. The only reason I haven’t is the desire for familial harmony. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/171 "2009-04-20T22:15:43Z")
I’d like to know who gets to decide what “in vain” means. Here’s another question. If I decide I’d like to revive the Sol Invictus cult, would it be rude for me to ask people not to mention my Lord, the Sun, in my presence? Would anybody here comply with such a request? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/172 "2009-04-20T22:18:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The lack of any conscious intent to AVOID the act. > > Is keeping kosher a religious practice, yes or no? It isn’t necessarily a religious practice; if it is, my vegan atheist acquaintances are very confused people. Do you think someone who keeps kosher (i.e., deliberately does not eat bacon, shellfish, meat and cheese at the same meal, insects, etc., not out of a desire to practice Judaism but out of a desire to avoid harming animals is engaging in a religious practice? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/173 "2009-04-20T22:19:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I certainly moderate my language around not only people who ask me to, but also around people who I suspect would appreciate it. > > On the other hand, try on this analogy: > > A neighbor kisses his wife goodbye when he leaves for work each morning. One day, he sees you kissing your same-sex partner goodbye when you leave for work in the morning. His six-year-old son sees you do it. He makes a request couched in polite language: “I’m really sorry, but my religion does not condone homosexuality, and I’m not ready to have that conversation yet with my son. Would you mind terribly not kissing your partern goodbye where my son can see you?” > > In that situation, I’d be furious, and I’d probably refuse to comply. In my gut I feel tehre’s a relevant difference, but I can’t find it. > > Thoughts? The major difference I see is that, in the situation described in the OP, the person is attempting to define the terms of your interaction with him. As one party in that interaction, he has the right to at least attempt to define that interaction. In your hypothetical, he’s trying to define the terms of your interaction with someone else. As someone not involved in that interaction, he has no right to dictate its terms. There’s also the issue of the degree to which you’re being put out by the request. Asking someone not to swear is a minor inconvenience, at worst. Asking someone to stay closeted so they’re not ooged out by your gayness is a pretty major imposition. Lastly, and more subjectively, there’s the inherent moral component in the belief itself. I don’t see anything immoral about blasphemy, but I don’t see anything immoral about being opposed to blasphemy, either. The request strikes me as quaint, but I don’t have any moral objection to the underlying belief, and it does not harm me if someone holds it. Religiously-based homophobia is a different matter. I feel that the belief itself is inherently immoral, and its expression actively harmful. As such, I am not inclined to alter my behavior in any way to accomodate it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/174 "2009-04-20T22:22:21Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > With all due respect, did you even read the quoted section? The part that says, “It’s more than endorsing religion, it’s practicing it”? (The “it,” in this context, being religion.) > > And in case that’s not enough, you also have the following gems: > > “I just don’t have the slightest inclination to practice someone else’s religion.” > > "I strongly disagree that simply declining a request to practice someone else’s religion is rude. " > > No matter what you might say, his comments were about practicing a particular _religion_, and not just an isolated religious practice. I too am not understanding the distinction you are trying to make. So let me suggest that, rather than the two of us arguing over what Diogenes means, we discuss what each other means. I would like to return to this question, which I don’t see you have responded to yet: > [@](#): > > What is your rationale for believing that if someone asks you not to use the lord’s name in vain, and you know that not using the lord’s name in vain is one of the ten christian commandments, they are NOT asking you to obey a religious precept? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/175 "2009-04-20T22:24:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not to you, but it is to them. You are engaging in a religious practice to placate an offenderato. So what? Assuming the person isn’t otherwise acting like a dick, what does it cost me to avoid a term he finds offensive, even if I don’t agree with the offensiveness of the term? Also, huge bonus irony points for you calling someone else an offenderato. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/176 "2009-04-20T22:25:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The major difference… This is a pretty goshdarn insightful analysis of the difference. Thanks, **Miller** –I can now feel comfortable agreeing not to swear in front of the faithful, while hypothetically smooching my boyfriend in front of the neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/177 "2009-04-20T22:26:43Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Asking me to refrain from a generally acceptable term that I use all the time is a huge imposition. I’m not sure what you mean by "The neighbor’s asking you to do something he does not do himself. " In the example, the neighbor kissed his wife goodbye when he went to work and wants you not to kiss your SO. And no, occasionaly refraining from some term isn’t that big a deal. It just isn’t. It’s not about the state of your soul, it’s about being nice to someone else at no cost to you. I guess if it was some annoying Kirk Cameron-esque street preacher, I might be inclined to bait him if I was drunk. But if you went to someone’s house and they said “Hey, my mom’s pretty religious. Could you do me a favor and not say things like ‘Jesus Christ’ or ‘goddamn it?’ I’d really appreciate it,” You’d say no? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/178 "2009-04-20T22:35:03Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Forgiven. As Pterry says, when you whack yourself on the thumb with an eight-pound hammer, it takes a special and strong-minded atheist to yell “Oh, random fluctuations in the space-time continuum!” or “Aargh, primitive-and-outmoded-concept on a crutch!”. 😃 I broke 3 fingers and sliced off a finger tip in a bike crash once and I don’t recall needing to resort to taking anyone’s lord’s name in vain. I am sure what I said was not pleasant, but it didn’t involve religion or psuedo-science at all. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/179 "2009-04-20T22:35:34Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > But if you went to someone’s house and they said “Hey, my mom’s pretty religious. Could you do me a favor and not say things like ‘Jesus Christ’ or ‘goddamn it?’ I’d really appreciate it,” You’d say no? Dunno about him, but I might start suggesting we meet at a different house. All things being considered, of course (a big-screen TV can make up for a bit of imposed self-censorship), but the fact that people like me aren’t welcome in a place is a bit of a deterrent, even if people only slightly different from me in vocabulary and/or personality are fine. Which is to say, merely making the request, however politely, is an imposition and an unsociable statement. Which may or may not tip the balance between interaction and noninteraction, depending on other factors. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590/180 "2009-04-20T22:38:15Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I too am not understanding the distinction you are trying to make. I see a major difference between, “Please don’t say that, it makes me uncomfortable,” and “Please don’t say that, God doesn’t like it.” Why it makes them uncomfortable isn’t my concern. Unless I’m deliberately trying to antagonize someone, I should as a matter of courtesy avoid speech or behavior that makes other people uncomfortable. Is their discomfort rational? No, I don’t think so, but it’s not my business to police everyone else’s feelings for rationality. I know **Left Hand** has a major needle phobia. That’s also irrational. If he’s over at my house, and _Pulp Fiction_ is on TV, I’m not going to make him watch the needle scene just because I don’t think he should be freaked out by needles. If I’ve got a Christian over at my house who doesn’t like blasphemy, I’m not going to go out of my way to say, “Jesus!” just because I think his superstition is silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-about-taking-the-lords-name-in-vain/493590.md?page=10)