# Poll for Hardline Atheists and/or Pacifists **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 21, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139 "2005-11-21T21:05:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/1 "2005-11-21T21:05:57Z")
My boss sent me on an errand for her about an hour ago and on the drive back to work, a Creed song came on. I can’t remember which it was but it did remind me of _My Own Prison_, my favorite song of theirs and there is one stanza in particular near the beginning that I especially like for its imagery _I hear a thunder in the distance See a vision of a cross I feel the pain that was given On that sad day of loss A lion roars in the darkness Only he holds the key A light to free me from my burden And grant me life eternally_ It always makes a small chill run down my back when I hear it but why? I’m as atheist as Mother Theresa was Catholic. Why would such a heavy-handed and hackneyed allegory of a belief system I _don’t even believe in_ evoke such an emotional response from me? Objectively, I understand it’s just cultural inertia from my upbringing as a christian (small “c” intentional) in Tennessee but, subjectively, it still kind of freaks me out. Likewise, do any pacifists have comparable reactions to martial displays? I was never pro-war, even as a child or teenager, but I can’t help but be a little overawed at showings of military might, whether it be a few jet fighters flying overhead, a company of soldiers marching in step, or stock footage of the Soviet Army marching in Red Square. Typing this out has made me realize that if I were a little less self-aware, I may’ve become one of the blindly allegiant people that scare me so and, as previously mentioned, that’s more than a little scary. Am I alone in this particular form of cognitive dissonance? ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/2 "2005-11-21T21:10:53Z")
No, I still get chills from great religious music, and it partly has to do with the imagery. I’m also a pacifist, but can still be impressed by the sight of a carrier or submarine coming into San Diego harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/3 "2005-11-21T21:11:14Z")
I’m not a pacifist. I have no such reaction to Christian symbols and songs, but I think that is from my being Jewish, not from now being an atheist. Sure you have emotional feelings about stuff that was important to you as a kid, no matter what you feel now. I get a bit choked up by menorahs, and still light the one we had when I was a kid which I inherited somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/4 "2005-11-21T21:16:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I have no such reaction to Christian symbols and songs, but I think that is from my being Jewish, not from now being an atheist. I didn’t mean for this to be a strictly (ex-)Christian thread and welcome any and all replies from people of other religions, even those that have converted to a different faith. I’m just curious how significant this cultural inertia is, no matter the original culture. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/5 "2005-11-21T21:25:54Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > _I hear a thunder in the distance > See a vision of a cross > I feel the pain that was given > On that sad day of loss > A lion roars in the darkness > Only he holds the key > A light to free me from my burden > And grant me life eternally_ > > It always makes a small chill run down my back when I hear it but why? I’m as atheist as Mother Theresa was Catholic. Why would such a heavy-handed and hackneyed allegory of a belief system I _don’t even believe in_ evoke such an emotional response from me? Some of it must be from your childhood. But beyond that, well…because it’s supposed to. The same ideas that sway people enough to become belivers…Sacrifice. Loss. Hope. Powerful stuff. I didn’t grow up Christian (big or small c) but I’ve walkied through enough museums looking at the crucixfises. Also powerful. And I wonder how many of the painters were really Christian (beyond the sense that everyone was then). Just was the vocabulary of the time for saying a lot of things about man and suffering and death…and so on. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/6 "2005-11-21T21:46:57Z")
How does cognitive dissonance come into play? On one hand, you are not religious (a belief) On the other hand, you become emotional at religious music (a behavior) Unless you now fool yourself by saying “I am religious”, I feel like Josh Baskin with his hand raised in _Big_, saying “I don’t get it.” ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/7 "2005-11-21T21:48:39Z")
I think that the success of the imagery can rest mostly on your past, but I sometimes suspect that the imagery itself is the means to its own success. IMHO the various symbols and rites of the big religions are moving not because they refer to some higher thing, but the various symbols and rites were chosen because they were moving to humans in the first place. Watch a movie with suspenseful music it works on you despite the fact that you know exactly how the cliche will be repeated. The music did not become suspenseful because you happened to have watched a scary movie as a child, the music triggers intense feelings of dread and whatever on its own. My two cents, just remember what you paid for 'em ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/8 "2005-11-21T22:26:16Z")
I really don’t listen to lyrics, nor do I really care about them unless they are really obnoxious. I probably enjoy a number of religious songs without realizing what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/9 "2005-11-21T22:26:26Z")
> [@phungi](#): > > How does cognitive dissonance come into play? I consider it cognitive dissonance because it evokes an emotional response in me for something I feel otherwise apathetic towards but I admit I might not be familiar with all the nuances of the phrase and may’ve picked a more appropiate one. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/10 "2005-11-21T22:43:18Z")
I’m quite the atheist and pacifist myself, but in a moment of desperation I in fact joined the US military. Stories of military heroism have warmed my heart since I was a little boy, and having some appreciation for the actual workings of the military now only accentuates it. Stories of [heroic Israeli victories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yonatan) get me a lot more, and always have, because I’m ethnically Jewish, spent a little time (not much) in Israel and have been pretty close to emigrating there before. Christian music, though, just makes me want to throw up. The only John and Paul I want to rock with are the Beatles. I accidentally bought a Christian hip-hop CD once, and the store wouldn’t take it back three days later because the guy at the counter said it was scratched, which was bullshit. I could practically hear them muttering “sucker” as I walked back out. Bastards. They’ll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. Back to the military. I freeze when I see war veterans, especially–again, this is from my Jewish background–WW2 veterans. I have absolutely no idea what to say. I vividly remember running into two WW2 veterans one day at an Air Force hospital and I was completely awestruck. I wanted to thank them so badly but the words couldn’t come out of my mouth. One noticed my condition and said “Hello”, and I sputtered “g-goodmorningsir” and ran out. > [@Voyager](#): > > I get a bit choked up by menorahs, and still light the one we had when I was a kid which I inherited somehow. Yup, same here, I think you’re right. **betenoir** also has a point. Regardless of your religious background, I dare you to visit the Holocaust museum or the national veterans’ memorial in Jerusalem and walk out with a dry eye. Our tour guide took us to the grave of the commander of his unit in the war with Lebanon in the 80s–our tour guide, like all able 18-year-old Israeli Jews, had been drafted into the IDF and happened to be 20 or so when the war broke out–and told us he could remember the commander’s grandfather crying at the military funeral like it was yesterday. There are no words. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/11 "2005-11-21T23:49:56Z")
The same reason that you cry or react to a well written novel or a great movie or powerful irreligious song, would be my guess. Add in the knowledge that to hundreds of millions of people this is real. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/12 "2005-11-22T00:10:55Z")
As a non-pacifist, this excerpt from KBC’s ‘America’ always causes tingles: > [@](#): > > In the streets of America > Back in the summer of ‘85 > I met a young girl, her heart was in flames > Jenny Bowen was her name > She was a California girl > War had changed her whole world > Her daddy died in Vietnam > She lost her husband in Lebanon > She was drivin’ back to Washington > To get a medal for the job they’d done > From the president of the United fuckin’ States of America ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/13 "2005-11-22T00:29:56Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The same reason that you cry or react to a well written novel or a great movie or powerful irreligious song, would be my guess. Add in the knowledge that to hundreds of millions of people this is real. That’s what I was going to say. I’ve found plenty of fiction moving, but it’s still fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/14 "2005-11-22T02:08:11Z")
Good point, **Sampiro**. Never thought of it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/15 "2005-11-22T03:39:17Z")
I’m probably not a pacifist, but I don’t think anything you’d call a typical war movie has ever done anything for me. There are some religious songs that I enjoy. “John the Revelator” is a personal favorite, and while I don’t like a lot of gospel music - some, though - a lot of the older music I like does contain references to religion. ---
**Author:** ![Idlewild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8491ac/32.png) [@Idlewild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idlewild)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/16 "2005-11-22T05:05:02Z")
I’m a pacifist by both upbringing and personal inclination but I really really like movies that show military tactics - not specifically modern war movies, but things like the Sharpe series, set in the Peninsula wars, or the battle stuff in Lord of the Rings. I really like seeing clever military manoeuvres in fiction. I like reading history that contains that kind of thing, also. And I love, love flyovers. Planes are just neat. I think there’s a small militaristic boy in me. (No, I didn’t eat him.) I’m also formerly christian and sincere religious stuff makes me intensely uncomfortable. (As opposed to things like the giant neon nativity scene I saw yesterday that just gave me the giggles.) I should be indifferent to religious stuff but there’s still a visceral guilt response to a lot of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/17 "2005-11-22T06:14:01Z")
Amazing Grace can give me chills. I love that song, and am still an atheist. "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me… I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now, I see. T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear. And Grace, my fears relieved. How precious did that Grace appear the hour I first believed." ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/18 "2005-11-22T07:11:29Z")
> [@Ghanima](#): > > Amazing Grace can give me chills. I love that song, and am still an atheist. > > "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, > That saved a wretch like me… > I once was lost but now am found, > Was blind, but now, I see. > > T’was Grace that taught > my heart to fear. > And Grace, my fears relieved. > How precious did that Grace appear > the hour I first believed." Despite being a stone atheist that song does the same for me. When I was a kid I heard Amazing Grace every other Sunday or so in a very small Baptist church being sung by a lot of older people. Sometimes there wasn’t even any accompanyment to it, just those old people singing. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stark_Raven_Mad)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/19 "2005-11-22T07:38:10Z")
A lot of it is social conditioning, too. Many of you were raised in an environment where you had frequent exposure to religious music in the religious context. It shouldn’t come as a surprise if that music does to you what it’s supposed to. I’m an atheist (verging on anti-theist) raised by agnostic parents in Singapore, Indonesia and Hong Kong. Not much religious music in these parts, unless you count the chanting, which I doesn’t. But while modern church “music” moves me about as much as jingles selling Miracle Foot Repair, I am one of the biggest fans of Requiems - I have multiple recordings of pretty much all the good ones - you’ll find in this corner of the world. Certainly stuff that was _meant_ to move and inspire (to worship). ---
**Author:** ![Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Stark\_Raven\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stark_Raven_Mad)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139/20 "2005-11-22T07:39:48Z")
> [@Stark Raven Mad](#): > > …unless you count the chanting, which I **doesn’t**. I blame my blood alcohol level for this. :smack: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-for-hardline-atheists-and-or-pacifists/332139.md?page=2)