# Poll: Homosexuals natural or conditioned? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032 "2003-01-21T19:26:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Mith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mith)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/41 "2003-01-22T17:18:49Z")
I don’t believe it’s a choice. I don’t have scientific evidence to back THAT up, but logically, why would anyone choose to be a minority? More importantly, what difference does it make? Live and let live. On the program with the link below, I found it intersting that they found most lesbians had physical differences to straight women, not just behavorial differences (prefering sex with females). Apparently lesbians tend to have less than a .7 hip to waist ratio. If physical differences exist to that extent… imagine how different the brain can be wired, or hormones increased/decreased… etc etc. (small minute differences that could explain orientation) [http://exn.ca/sexfiles/Homosexuality/](http://exn.ca/sexfiles/Homosexuality/) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/42 "2003-01-22T17:26:22Z")
My impression is that **Fuel** is not trotting out the old “homosexuality is unnatural” canard but using “natural” to mean “not caused or mediated by cultural or social pressures, but a result of physiological causes” by the phrasing of his OP and his repeated dichotomies between “natural” and “conditioned.” I would like to see some evidence for his “early childhood choice” suggestion before I’d call it anything but an unsupported hypothesis, but I don’t think he’s out to play the “them queers is just not nat’ral” game, merely the victim of the connotations of a less-than-well-considered word choice. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/43 "2003-01-22T19:00:24Z")
thanks polycarp, that is right. i thought that much was obvious, but thanks for pointing that out. i am trying to make my posts as short as possible, so i opted to leave that out. i know i am going against the flow here. that’s one reason i posted this. adolescents make many many decisions during their short years. some are good decisions, some are bad. some are frivilous, some are uneducated, some are calculated and thought out, but calculated by a young ignorant kid who may or may not be clear headed. social pressures and family life are so instrumental in shaping a kids’ personality and future. a kids’ social, family and educational atmospheres hit him head on at a point at which he can’t deal with them as well as an adult. so a kid inevitably makes many bad, ignorant, uncalculated decisions throughout his growing years. kids end up in gangs, kids drop out of school without telling their parents, kids pop 10 zanny bars at once… -----(((((with this shaping giant in early in one’s life, is it that hard or illogical to believe it would affect one’s sexual preferences tremendously?)))))----- (notice all my posts have contained the words FOR THE MOST PART.) Mith: so most lesbians are overweight with a 20:30 hip:waist ratio? or excuse me, “tend” to be overweight? what does that matter. let’s not play the “ok, let’s put all the homosexuals together and see what they all have in common… and it doesn’t matter what it is, it could be hands (like on that site) or freckles or whatever”. that is not logic. and comparing us to animals is not logic. it contains an assumption that we are similar enough to animals to be compared to them in our love lives. ## this was what tomndebb posted a site: Bailey and Pillard (1991): occurrence of homosexuality among brothers 52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise homosexual 22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual 11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were likewise homosexual J.M. Bailey and R.C. Pillard, “A genetic study of male sexual orientation,” Archives of General Psychiatry, vol. 48:1089-1096, December 1991. ## Bailey and Pillard (1993): occurrence of homosexuality among sisters 48% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual (lesbian) 16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual 6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual these two studies say that when you grow up with homosexuals raising you or around you (parents or brothers), you are more likely to become homosexual. i agree, i should have used that to prove MY point. that is not a link to genetics but a cause of conditioning. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/44 "2003-01-22T19:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*It is common these days for evolutionary biologists to shun the whole nature/nurture debate. The more we learn about genes and behavior, there seems to be a genetic basis for almost all type of behavior, .\*\*but very little behavior is SOLELY determined by our genes. \*\* Different propensities manifest themselves to a greater or lesser degree depending on our envioronment. For instance, there seems to be a gene for “excitement seeking” that may in some cases lead a person to a career in law enforcement, but another person may end up a criminal. All due to a very similar genetic predisposition which manefests iteslf differently over the lives of different individuals. But it’s important to keep in mind that we’re not talking about physics here, but biology. We’re very much at the beginning of our understanding about the whole genetic basis of behavior. \*\* yes. and i interpret this partial role of genetics as a way out. a choice. admitting that the role of our environment can affect the outcome of our lives proves that one is NOT determined to be hmosexual out of the womb. there are many many ways around a genetic predisposition, it’s just that most shameful homosexuals (homosexuals who wish they weren’t) or homosexuals who swear they could never be hetero, didn’t find that way out or didn’t look for the way out. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/45 "2003-01-22T19:08:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Fuel** _ > > with this shaping giant in early in one’s life, is it that hard or illogical to believe it would affect one’s sexual preferences tremendously? You’re seriously suggesting that sexual orientation is determined in adolescence? > [@](#): > > these two studies say that when you grow up with homosexuals raising you or around you (parents or brothers), you are more likely to become homosexual. i agree, i should have used that to prove MY point. that is not a link to genetics but a cause of conditioning. And did you miss the 50% correlation between sets of identical twins? Furthermore, please explain how I turned out gay but my sisters didn’t, when we were raised by the same parents in the same household. For that matter, please explain why any sibling of a gay person turned out straight, since they were raised by the same parents in the same household. Jeez Louise, way to twist facts to fit your pet theories! Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/46 "2003-01-22T19:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fuel \* > > there are many many ways around a genetic predisposition, it’s just that most shameful homosexuals (homosexuals who wish they weren’t) or homosexuals who swear they could never be hetero, didn’t find that way out or didn’t look for the way out. Is there something _wrong_ with being homosexual? Indeed, even if it were a choice, would it make a difference? We are (arguably) given the freedom to live our lives as we see fit, as long as it breaks no laws and hurts no other, eh? “A way out” indeed. Careful, **Fuel** - your agenda is showing. :rolleyes: Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/47 "2003-01-22T19:14:36Z")
You are misunderstanding completely, Fuel. The studies **Tom~** cites show that there very likely a genetic component. > [@](#): > > **They put together a series of studies that almost everyone agrees established that there’s a genetic “something” in sexual orientation.** There is nothing in the site linked to that even mentions the _parents_’ sexuality nor the acceptance of homosexuality in the family. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/48 "2003-01-22T19:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > these two studies say that when you grow up with homosexuals raising you or around you (parents or brothers), you are more likely to become homosexual. Those figures say nothing of the sort. If it is simply a matter of “growing up around” homosexuals, then the figures for fraternal twins and adoptive siblings should be nearly the same as those for identical twins. There is no information in that study that indicates “being around” homosexuals has any effect at all. (It does not preclude it, but it certainly does not support it.) ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/49 "2003-01-22T19:16:05Z")
So, **Fuel** , how do you explain all the homosexuals out there who didn’t have gay sex during their adolescence? Or the homosexuals who came to realize their sexuality after being married for years? Or the homosexuals who, after years of being exposed to environments where homosexuality is condemned, and after struggling mightily to try and reverse their sexual orientation, came to realize that it was an integral part of their nature, like it or not? There’s a big difference between ‘environmental factors can influence homosexuality’ and ‘misguided adolescents are choosing to be gay to spite their parents,’ and your argument makes no distinction between the two. Care to find anything that supports your ‘adolescent choice’ theory? I’ve never met anyone, anywhere who claims that they chose to be gay during their adolescence, and then can’t go back to being heterosexual. You’d think that’d be a memorable event. Why is the testimony of homosexuals on this matter irrelevant to you? And then, lastly, and most importantly, what does it matter to you? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/50 "2003-01-22T19:22:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > You’re seriously suggesting that sexual orientation is determined in adolescence? My assumption would also be that this is the most influential time. Why the shock? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > If it is simply a matter of “growing up around” homosexuals, then the figures for fraternal twins and adoptive siblings should be nearly the same as those for identical twins. And if it were “simply a matter of” genetics, then the figures for fraternal twins would be the same as non-twin siblings - it is substantially higher. What these studies seem to show is that there are both components involved. Which - frankly - is exactly what you would expect. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/51 "2003-01-22T19:27:55Z")
People seem to be confusing “conditioned” or environmental factors as “choice” and that is obviously not correct. The fact that twins have only a 50% gay corelation does **not** mean that one of the twins decided to become gay. Nor does it necessarily mean that he was taught to be gay either. For all we know it may have been inter-utero conditions which caused the difference in the twins. Personally I think it’s a little silly to have a debate over something which eventually(probably) will have a factual answer when everyone is just arguing from emotion and ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/52 "2003-01-22T19:29:14Z")
BTW, **Fuel** , that hip-to-waist ratio is _not_ necessarily an indication of “overweight.” ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/53 "2003-01-22T19:31:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **Is there something _wrong_ with being homosexual?** Absolutely not! Or is that what you are getting at, **Fuel**? Please share your full agenda & conclusions with us. [hijack] by the way, I sent you an email, **Esprix**. [/hijack] MH ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/54 "2003-01-22T19:36:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > My assumption would also be that this is the most influential time. Why the shock? Because every gay person I’ve ever met can remember same-sex attraction waaaaaaaaaaaaay before adolescence and puberty. I, for one, remember having a crush on a male classmate in the fouth grade, but never being attracted to girls. Again, from the APA: > [@](#): > > In most people, sexual orientation is shaped **at an early age**. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person’s sexuality… “At an early age,” but the studies I’ve seen (and I don’t have a cite handy) indicate “early age” to mean “before the age of 5.” > [@](#): > > Sexual orientation **emerges** for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. “Emerges” does not equate to “chosen.” I came to the _realization_ and _acceptance_ that I was gay when I was 18, but I was gay long, long, long before that. > [@](#): > > What these studies seem to show is that there are both components involved. Which - frankly - is exactly what you would expect. Indeed, and this is what research suggests. Either way, it’s something that happens, is beyond one’s control, and can’t be changed. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/55 "2003-01-22T19:54:28Z")
**Izzy** , agreed that adolescence is the time when one most commonly experiences erotic arousal when contemplating a person found attractive to oneself (although there is quite a bit of evidence showing that it’s “natural” for pre-puberty children to experience arousal), you’re only addressing sexual desire, an important part but still only one part of what constitutes orientation. I recall finding scantily clad girls very intriguing well before I can recall experiencing an orgasm; I can introduce you to an eight-year-old who thinks that (older) “girls are pretty.” And to his six-year-old brother who is unabashedly sensual and has occasional erections when cuddling with adults he loves, of both sexes. Pre-puberty sexuality is not well researched (for what I think are obvious reasons) but is evidently a component of the human psyche. I’d be interested in seeing if we can isolate an objective meaning for “natural” as used in the normal context (as opposed to **Fuel** ’s) or whether it’s merely a category meaning, in essence, “It’s not something _I_ would ever want to do, so it’s not ‘natural’ for anybody.” News item: I don’t find cunnilingus enjoyable, but based on statistical evidence I find myself in a minority. And I would never class it as “unnatural.” ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/56 "2003-01-22T20:05:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > > … cunnilingus… :eek: [sub]( **Poly** said “cunnilingus!”) :eek: _{faints dead away}_ Esprix ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/57 "2003-01-22T20:13:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > Because every gay person I’ve ever met can remember same-sex attraction waaaaaaaaaaaaay before adolescence and puberty. I, for one, remember having a crush on a male classmate in the fouth grade, but never being attracted to girls. (Note also to Polycarp) I’m not sure how you can identify such an attraction as sexual as opposed to generally “liking to hang around with Joe”. I suspect that many people who have such attractions reinterpret them retroactively based on how they turn out when they grow up. In general, from what I’ve read of human development, it is common for teenagers entering adolescence to form an “attraction” to an older member of the same gender. This is thought to be a precursor - in most cases - of later attraction to people of opposite gender. This does not mean that this attraction is a “sexual” one. In my own case, I remember in my early teens absolutely worshipping a certain guy I knew about 8 years older than me. But I would have been horrified and revolted had someone suggested performing any sex acts with the guy. 😉 Still, adolescence is a time when people are becoming conscious to a greater degree of their sexual identity and new-found feelings. It would not be surprising if people were subject to a significant amount of imprinting at this time. Of further note: we have been using language of homosexual or heterosexual throughout this debate, which might give a false impression of a black and white, one or the other world. When as we know, sexual orientation is actually a sliding scale. So that the influence of environment or genetics might not always be in turning straight to gay or vice versa but in moving a 3 to a 4 etc. > [@](#): > > “At an early age,” but the studies I’ve seen (and I don’t have a cite handy) indicate “early age” to mean “before the age of 5.” According to this, it would be possible to study someone at age five and determine that they are (or will turn out to be) gay. I don’t believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/58 "2003-01-22T20:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > I’m not sure how you can identify such an attraction as sexual as opposed to generally “liking to hang around with Joe”. I suspect that many people who have such attractions reinterpret them retroactively based on how they turn out when they grow up. Perhaps, perhaps not, but I’d appreciate not having my feelings trivialized. I had a crush on him, and there is no doubt in my mind about that. I also never had the same feelings for any girl. I think you’ll find similar statements from many gay men and lesbians. Science cannot quantify feelings. > [@](#): > > Still, adolescence is a time when people are becoming conscious to a greater degree of their sexual identity and new-found feelings. It would not be surprising if people were subject to a significant amount of imprinting at this time. And it seems obvious to me that it’s the time when you come to realize what you already are - any “imprinting” is long since over. > [@](#): > > Of further note: we have been using language of homosexual or heterosexual throughout this debate, which might give a false impression of a black and white, one or the other world. When as we know, sexual orientation is actually a sliding scale. So that the influence of environment or genetics might not always be in turning straight to gay or vice versa but in moving a 3 to a 4 etc. I’ll agree with that. > [@](#): > > According to this, it would be possible to study someone at age five and determine that they are (or will turn out to be) gay. I don’t believe it. I don’t believe that’s what was said. What is theorized (as human sexuality is a slippery eel of a scientific study) is that, again, any environmental factors that go into the development of your sexual orientation take place in infancy and toddlerhood. (NOTE to all those who would take that out of context - we’re not talking child molestation, we’re talking intangible and ineffable quantities that happen to all of us in life.) All the reading I’ve done tends to indicate that “you” (as in your personality and defining characteristics) are pretty much cemented by around age 5. I, personally, agree with that. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/59 "2003-01-22T20:58:50Z")
**Esprix** , you’re forgetting… in the debates that take place on the nature of homosexuality, the testimony of homosexuals is completely ignored. If people were to take our experiences into account, then they wouldn’t be able to spend so many happy hours doing conjectural calisthenics to try and figure out what makes us who we are. And that would just take all the fun out of it, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032/60 "2003-01-22T21:06:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > I don’t believe that’s what was said. What is theorized (as human sexuality is a slippery eel of a scientific study) is that, again, any environmental factors that go into the development of your sexual orientation take place in infancy and toddlerhood. It is theoretically possible for all the environmental factors to be in place by age five without anyone being able to figure them out. But then there would be no studies that could verify this. If there are studies which have concluded that sexual orientation is fixed by age five, then presumably by using whatver criteria was used in the study you could actually identify orientation by age five. > [@](#): > > All the reading I’ve done tends to indicate that “you” (as in your personality and defining characteristics) are pretty much cemented by around age 5. I, personally, agree with that. I think this is a major overstatement. And I would think that in the case of sexual orientation - considering what you would agree is at least a major development that takes place in adolescence - it would make sense to attribute a larger part to later development. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-homosexuals-natural-or-conditioned/150032.md?page=4)