# Poll shows many Germans see U.S. behind Sept 11 **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 24, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645 "2003-07-24T16:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/21 "2003-07-24T23:06:13Z")
> [@](#): > > When it comes to issues of world domination, I for one am sure glad we’re interested in the opinion of the eternally pacifistic Germans, who would never try to conquer the world! Uh, sins of the fathers, anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/22 "2003-07-24T23:16:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HPL \* > \*\*One of the things I wonder, the paper(magazine?) that did the poll, **Die Zeit** , what kind of publication are they? Are they a legitement publication, or are they Germany’s version of the National Enquirier(With this poll being put next to an article about aliens dropping elvis into Munich Town Square)? If legtimate, are they on the fringes of German politics or centered well in the mainstream? \*\* **Die Zeit** is a highbrow, centrist weekly; as reputable as its gets. The publisher, Helmut Schmidt, was Chancellor from 1974-1982; the managing editors are Dr. Michael Naumann, a former cabinet minister for culture and Dr. Josef Joffe [Bio](http://www.aicgs.org/about/board/joffe.shtml). The polling firm, Forsa, is also reputable. See also my post above on the actual wording of the question and some thoughts on the reasons for the answers. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/23 "2003-07-25T02:22:26Z")
Well, I don’t think it’s an entirely unreasonable position - but maybe I’m crazy. I don’t think the US government staged the incident, or had prior knowledge. However, imagine a high-level intelligence gathering operation reveals that Al-Queda is planning some sort of attack with hijacked airplanes. This travels up the chain on a need-to-know basis so that only a few people in the CIA, the president, and his advisors are aware of it. So we have a bunch of neo-con imperialists who have an agenda that’s not really justifiable at all (re: launching aggresssive wars of invasion) sitting on what they’d consider a gold mine: potential justification. Now, of course, we could trust that they’re all good people and they just couldn’t stomach the idea that people might die - or we could take a more practical view that they’re self-serving politicians with an agenda that would benefit from such attacks. Remember when they released classified documents, about 2 years back, about how in the 60s we had actual plans to fake a terrorist attack on US soil as a justification to invade Cuba? So, anyway, if they make every effort to stop this, they’ll save some lives but they’ll lose their chance at pushing their agenda. However, if they let it happen, they _instantly_ receive support for just about anything they want to do from a stupid american populace. Government control through repressive legislation? The patriot act got pushed through faster than anyone could read it. Instant justification for removing the Taliban, who’d coincidentally refused to allow them to run oil pipelines through the country from the newly discovered reserves in wherever-istan. Sufficient justification for a war that Rumsfeld and crew have been pushing for years now - even though 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, they still managed to push the idea that they were related and enough people bought it to have enough support to go through with it. Anyway, I have no evidence that they knew, and certainly no evidence that they engineered it, so I don’t claim they did - but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that shitty people in power would act in their own interests at the cost of civilian lives, and as such, wondering if they did know doesn’t strike me as unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/24 "2003-07-25T02:23:35Z")
What am I supposed to infer from this poll other than 20% of Germans are ignorant savages? To believe that somehow our government would kill 3,000 of our own citizens, cause billions in damage AND be able to cover it up? And this is more believeable than Bush’s BS…why? ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/25 "2003-07-25T02:28:44Z")
If Bush was that smart… and that crazy… and that able… …then the Special Forces guys would have rescued PFC Lynch bare seconds after she’d been raped by forty Republican Guards and then bayoneted fifty or sixty times for the fun of it, just in time for her to realize she’d been rescued, and gasp out “God… bless… america…\*\*” and expire, right there in the arms of her rescuers. On camera. Instead, Bush is now having to fight like hell to justify what he’s done, what he’s doing, and what he’s gonna do. And if the Democrats could mount a candidate more appealing than a trained monkey, he’d be sweating pretty good about now. I don’t think the administration is quite that draconian. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/26 "2003-07-25T02:37:45Z")
I live here – “here” being within walking distance of That Which Used to Be the World Trade Center – and given the events of the last 9 months I have to admit it’s crossed my mind a couple times too. Rejected, though. Current admin isn’t adroit and sophisticated enough to pull it off. ---
**Author:** ![Hugh\_Jass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4da419/32.png) [@Hugh\_Jass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugh_Jass)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/27 "2003-07-25T02:49:09Z")
If the administration can’t hide that they lied about uranium from Africa, they’re gonna be able to hide something of this magnitude? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/28 "2003-07-25T03:08:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hugh Jass \* > \*\*If the administration can’t hide that they lied about uranium from Africa, they’re gonna be able to hide something of this magnitude? \*\* There’s a HUGE difference between covering something up that was said to the entire American populace, and a top secret intelligence report only a hand full of people might know about. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/29 "2003-07-25T04:17:30Z")
- the question was not “Was the US government behind the attacks?”, as a lot of the posts seem to be reacting to. I , too, would read it as “Do you believe that the US government **could have been** behind the attacks ?” With the current administration having a few credibility issues re the rationale for the Iraq war - I can’t say I’m surprised that more than a few would interpret the question to be answerable along the lines of “Sure, these scheming bastards _could_ have done that”. If I may add a personal observation, I lived in Germany in 2001, and I’m pretty damn sure that a poll at that time wouldn’t have given a result like that - hell, Germany was tripping over her own feet to support the mission in Afghanistan. It would appear that the Iraq excursion has lost the US more than lives and money. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/30 "2003-07-25T04:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > If I may add a personal observation, I lived in Germany in 2001, and I’m pretty damn sure that a poll at that time wouldn’t have given a result like that - hell, Germany was tripping over her own feet to support the mission in Afghanistan. And, if memory serves, Germany is the only nation that has captured and convicted anybody related to September 11 (since a number of the hijackers were apparently based there before they came over to the US). I’m with **Spiny Norman** , and **SenorBeef** a little further up the thread. I can understand how one could say _it’s possible_. In addition to the lack of trust of the administration abroad, there’s the _cui bono?_ factor. That’s not to say I entertain the thought that it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/31 "2003-07-25T07:39:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*Uh, sins of the fathers, anybody? \*\* “A thousand years will pass and the guilt of Germany will not be erased.” -Hans Frank, German military governor of Poland. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/32 "2003-07-25T08:00:18Z")
> [@](#): > > “A thousand years will pass and the guilt of Germany will not be erased.” > -Hans Frank, German military governor of Poland. The guilt of the people who actually perpetrated the atrocities won’t be erased, no. But seeing as how a majority of the people now living in Germany weren’t born at the time, I can’t say they’re any more guilty of the crimes of the Holocaust than you or I. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/33 "2003-07-25T08:02:48Z")
So I would say that invalidating the opinions of Germans today based on the actions of the Nazis, whose crimes can’t be understated but who have been out of power for almost 60 years, is pretty damn stupid. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/34 "2003-07-25T08:12:20Z")
Yep, quoting a dead German guy sure makes it true, all right. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/35 "2003-07-25T08:15:33Z")
“If he’s so smart, how come he’s dead?” - Homer Simpson ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/36 "2003-07-25T13:29:06Z")
We have to put this into perspective. In the 1930’s, the german people were thoroughly convinced that: -Germany had NOT lost WWI militarily…they were “stabbed in the back” -the jewish population (somewhere around 5%) owned allofGerman business, and was responsible for the inflation of the 1920’s -Germany was encirlcedby hostile countries, whowanted to destroy Germany With thiskind of credulity, I’m not surprised that the poll found these strange beliefs. Of course,ifyou believe that the US government wouldactively conspire in the murder of over 3200 people, then YOU have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/37 "2003-07-25T15:12:23Z")
- and of course, hardly a thing has changed in Germany over those 70 years… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/38 "2003-07-25T16:29:25Z")
This just goes to prove my theory: German’s love David Hasslehoff. 😛 Seriously, I took a class on polling as a part of my degree in Poli Sci, and you wouldn’t believe how changing the wording of the poll question can skew the results all over the place. Also, as a poller, you are simply to repeat the question as printed if the person askes for clarification. Spiny Norman bolded the key part of the question. If the exact same question was asked but “Could have been” was replaced with “likely”, you’d see very different results. Methinks whoever wrote the questions for this poll had an axe to grind. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/39 "2003-07-25T17:11:19Z")
Pssst… all you lefties who are throwing around bizarre accusations against “neo-cons”? Learn what the freaking term means! If you knew what it meant, you’d also know that virtually all of the leading neoconservatives were shut out of the Bush administration because virtually all of them were John McCain supporters! The idea that some sinister cabal of neo-conservatives is running the Bush administration (when a casual glance at Bush’s appointments shows that this is really the Ford administration, Part Deux) is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645/40 "2003-07-25T17:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Casey1505 \* > \*\*[In a nation of at least 82 million people,](http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/bevoe/bev_tab4.htm) they interview 1000 people to find 200 that hold that opinion, and it’s supposed to be representative? > > Hell, if you looked hard enough, you can probably find 300 people who think that left handed people are responsible for all the evils in the world. > > I agree that it’s a crock. \*\* Respectfully, while it _may_ be a crock, your critique definately is a crock. If the 1,000 were randomly sampled then we’d be able to make a pretty good guess how close to the real number the sample is. But we don’t know whether proper sampling & statsitical techniques were used. Because of that, we are not in a position to declare it a crock; instead, we have to declare it an assertion of questionable veracity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poll-shows-many-germans-see-u-s-behind-sept-11/190645.md?page=3)