# Pollution in China
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 25, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089 "2009-10-25T20:33:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/1 "2009-10-25T20:33:21Z")
This [is a link](http://image.fengniao.com/vision/vision.php?id=122) to what appears to be several photos of the levels of pollution in China. Since I can’t read Chinese, I can’t confirm what I’m seeing.
If this is true, where is the world outrage? Why aren’t the Chinese demanding change in the industrial sector?
Are the citizens of China never told how this pollution will affect them?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/2 "2009-10-25T20:40:59Z")
The Chinese aren’t demanding change in the industrial sector because demanding anything too loudly is a good way to get yourself put in prison.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/3 "2009-10-25T20:48:40Z")
> [@Ruby](#):
>
> Why aren’t the Chinese demanding change in the industrial sector?
Srsly? You know you’re talking about a dictatorship, right?
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/4 "2009-10-25T20:53:19Z")
The relationship the rest of the world has with China is extremely complicated, and due to get even more so. [A recent example of how they do business - banning Canadian canola for having the same fungus that Chinese canola has.](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2009/10/23/sk-mb-canola-china-exports-blackleg.html) This is a five billion dollar crop, with China as the largest customer. We want to do business with a country that has a billion consumers in it, but it’s going to get…interesting.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/5 "2009-10-25T20:58:03Z")
> [@Ruby](#):
>
> Why aren’t the Chinese demanding change in the industrial sector?
They are, just not in ways that get on the news, because those methods get you shot.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/6 "2009-10-25T21:20:23Z")
It’s unlikely that there is any internally broadcast news that reports anything but that the country is the best place on Earth. Most people are probably largely unaware of the topic of pollution let alone aware that it is a problem anywhere in their country. Those who are actually experiencing it probably consider it to be a fact of life, similar to the pea-soup fog of London during the industrial age, without any particular solution and hence not worth complaining about.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/7 "2009-10-25T21:41:37Z")
Well, here’s the state’s take on pollution:
> **[Punish polluters to save environment](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2009-09/09/content_8671495.htm)**
>
> Authorities should impose severe punishment on people responsible for pollution to help prevent environmental damage, says an article on Xinhua Net.
> **[Preventing pollution better than curing it](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2009-08/27/content_8622257.htm)**
>
> A series of serious pollution cases have left people wondering why high-polluting industries were sanctioned and could operate in populous areas for years, and if the environmental evaluation of new projects can prevent such incidents, says an...
It’s pretty much what you’d expect. Environmental damage is a bad thing, and the state should punish it, and there should be harsher sentences to stop it.
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### Author:  [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/8 "2009-10-25T21:46:56Z")
> [@friedo](#):
>
> Srsly? You know you’re talking about a dictatorship, right?
It doesn’t work that way. There’s plenty of protesting and dissent and as long as it doesn’t challenge the central government you’re unlikely to get dragged off to jail. What most often happens is that a local government wants to open a new factory to produce jobs (and boost their economic stats), and locals protest it. Obviously they don’t always shut it down but it does happen a significant amount.
As for why people aren’t raising a (heh) stink about it, think about it this way: China may be growing, but the majority of people are still dirt poor. The per capita GDP is [104th out of 178](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China) in the world, which is something to keep in mind when you hear alarmists talking about how China’s going to take over everything. Under these conditions, people are mostly willing to accept a good amount of pollution in exchange for jobs and a better life for their children.
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### Author:  [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/9 "2009-10-25T21:49:33Z")
Also as for the talk of China being a dictatorship etc., this is true but that doesn’t mean that the central government has absolute authority. In fact it is pretty concerned about environmental damage, as **Cpt. A.**'s links show, but is unable to force regional and local governments to fall into line. (Local officials are promoted based on their region’s economic performance, which gives them little incentive to slow growth to save the whales.)
Relevant article: [China’s Silver Lining - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200806/pollution-in-china)
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### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/10 "2009-10-25T22:46:37Z")
Another article about pollution in China by James Fallows that appeared in _The Atlantic_:
> **[How I Survived China](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/11/how-i-survived-china/307715/)**
>
> Our man in Beijing returns home, with lungs only somewhat the worse for wear.
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### Author:  [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/11 "2009-10-26T03:28:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> It’s unlikely that there is any internally broadcast news that reports anything but that the country is the best place on Earth. Most people are probably largely unaware of the topic of pollution let alone aware that it is a problem anywhere in their country. Those who are actually experiencing it probably consider it to be a fact of life, similar to the pea-soup fog of London during the industrial age, without any particular solution and hence not worth complaining about.
Judging from my experience in China (I’m Chinese Canadian, and I visit China at least once a year) what **Sage Rat** says is true.
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### Author:  [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/12 "2009-10-26T03:58:25Z")
Thanks for the input, especially your personal experience, **Animastryfe**. I don’t know why this is shocking to me because I do understand the oppression the Chinese people suffer. I guess I thought that my government could _tell_ me that I was in the best place on the planet but my eyes would know otherwise. I don’t understand the complacency and acceptance of “no particular solution and hence not worth complaining about.” The culture of a communist dictatorship is completely foreign to me.
ETA: Do you know if these conditions are isolated and few or if this amount of pollution is commonplace throughout the country?
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/13 "2009-10-26T06:02:15Z")
Trust me, the Chinese people are VERY aware of the environmental problems they face. I live in a rather polluted city and the pollution is a topic of daily conversation. The other day I had my students make predictions for the future, and I was surprised that all of their environmental predictions were along the lines of “all water will turn black” and “all plants will die because of air pollution.”
The media does tend to wax sanguine about the place, but it’s not like China is North Korea or something. Although people are very patriotic and believe that China is a great country that will get better and better, they are also well aware that they do not live in Disneyland.
There is a limited but meaningful amount of discussion and debate in the media. Pollution is one of the safer subjects to offer criticism about- a quick search of the China Daily yields all kinds of articles about pollution, including some pretty controversial ones addressing things like rising birth defect rates and the role of corruption. Pollution is a regular subject for news TV shows, editorial columns, debate competitions and the like. There are some unspoken rules about what lines shouldn’t be crossed, and news often ends with a positive spin (here is how we are solving the problem!) but there is also surprising laxity when it comes to subjects that can be debated without questioning existing power structures.
There have been some rather large steps taken to battle pollution. But the biggest problems are on the local levels, where official controls are unenforced. The country has industrialized faster than their ability to regulate things. There really isn’t a ton the average person can do but complain, which they do every time there is another smelly gray day.
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/14 "2009-10-26T08:12:29Z")
what she said. look instead of thinking this is a manevolent totalitarian dictatorship ruling every aspect of people’s daily lives (which was true in the 50’s - 80ls. It’s more accurate to think of robber barons and unbridled capitalism.
the unofficial motto of the ‘State’ is ‘don’t challenge our right to rule, and we’ll let you prosper’
there are very few people in china that don’t voice at least dismay and disappointment over the pollution levels and affect on health, especially for their children.
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### Author:  [@Ikkyu\_Sojun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ikkyu_Sojun)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/15 "2009-10-26T08:38:39Z")
I second almost word by word what even\_sven says. I live in Shanghai and even if it is better than what I had to suffer for a year in Beijing, the pollution is quite noticeable. Of course, it is much worse in the industrial areas in the country side, where companies can pollute just by paying off the local governments, for example. But you are really wrong if you think there is nobody protesting those things and fighting for better conditions.
Still, the protest methods are important, as somebody pointed out. As long as you do not get too difficult for the Central Government, you might not be in direct danger of ending up accused of treason, but the local governments have a lot of power and can make your life very difficult, hire goons to beat you up or silence you in other ways.
Then again, strength is in numbers, and as there is more and more awareness and better living conditions, people is letting their opinions be heard.
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### Author:  [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/16 "2009-10-26T11:14:39Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#):
>
> there are very few people in china that don’t voice at least dismay and disappointment over the pollution levels and affect on health, especially for their children.
I lived in China for two years and will agree with this entirely. I’m disappointed to see how ignorant some people can be on the Straight Dope, but I guess that is what we are fighting. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/17 "2009-10-26T11:53:02Z")
> [@Ruby](#):
>
> I guess I thought that my government could _tell_ me that I was in the best place on the planet but my eyes would know otherwise.
Your eyes would know otherwise only if you had access to other information. The Chinese do know otherwise but there is only so much they can do and only so many people who are in a position of power and can keep it while “playing nice.”
You may find [lalenin](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=410197)’s thread interesting, he mentions growing up in Cuba being told (and being convinced) that conditions in the rest of the world were worse.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/18 "2009-10-26T12:52:10Z")
with 1.3 billion citizens, life there is cheap. Last I heard, something like 6000 coal miners die on the job every year. Divide by four to compare with the US: would we tolerate 1250 coal mining deaths per year in this country? Hardly; we regard it as a national tragedy when a dozen people are trapped/killed underground, but that happens, on average, _every day_ in China.
A similar ethic prevails in virtually any other endeavor. Industrial growth is the highest priority these days, and public health will continue to take a back seat for years to come. that’s true whether you’re talking about environmental pollution, food safety, or [workplace safety](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkS7S664OeY).
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Derfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Derfel)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/19 "2009-10-26T13:38:02Z")
I’ve spent a fair amount of time in Chinese steel mills (actually, I’m commissioning a project in Henan province right now). Trust me, they know exactly how bad the pollution is. They also know that there’s nothing that the average person can do about it. One thing China has is an abundance of labour - unskilled labour is a dime a dozen. Embarrassing management could lead to losing your job, and you will be replaced in a heartbeat. The average plant operator with no safety net is not going to risk his job like that.
The plant management decides not to repair (or even install!) pollution controls? You want a job? Then put up with it.
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### Author:  [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pollution-in-china/515089/20 "2009-10-28T02:45:47Z")
The long term ramifications of that level of pollution will affect their country (as well as the rest of the world) for centuries. Industrial revolution or life. Doesn’t seem like much of a choice to me.
ETA: Of course, that’s spoken from the mindset of an American.
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