# Poly, tom~, Zev, Lib, Brick...beagledave gullible? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932 "2003-03-20T23:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/41 "2003-03-21T04:21:51Z")
**Gobear** , I can grant your “some” premises – God knows I’ve done my level best, and will continue to do so, to attempt to get Christians to behave more the way Jesus did and less the way Constantine did (for lack of a better example that comes readily to mind). However, you made some statements about belief in general that I have a problem with – and I’d be very much honored if you would take the trouble to read through the thread that **badchad** started in GD about two or three weeks ago to challenge my belief structure, and then to ask some probing questions about that belief system – in an effort to suggest to you that a rational approach to Christian faith is not totally oxymoronic. I’d much prefer that over a snide “he said/ **he** said” exchange, complete with dueling quote-and-response chains. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/42 "2003-03-21T04:27:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*Well, of COURSE we Christians are gullible, and choose to believe what we WANT to believe, rather than what the evidence tells us. > > That’s why, when Troffim Lysenko went around claiming that acquired traits are passed down to offspring, Christians swallowed that crud up! > > Good thing the Soviet Union was run by atheists, who were purely rational, had no agenda, and would NEVER embrace a ridiculous theory just because it fit with their ideology. Lysenko could NEVER have found supporters there. > > Uh… \*\* While the Soviets may have called themselves atheists, they were as blinded by ideology as any fundamentalist Christian. All they did was substitute Stalin for Christ. Nice try. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/43 "2003-03-21T04:30:36Z")
So they were no true atheists? \*::: g, d, & r ::: \* ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/44 "2003-03-21T04:30:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > **From the point of view of an athiest. A christian is someone who has been duped by a con at least once already. So _of course_ they are more likely to be duped again. This is practually a truism. To believe otherwise an athiest would have to stop being an athiest. > I** From the point of view of this atheist, I must disagree. While I may agree that there are some establishment figures in religion who are “cons”, by no means do I think all are. Nor do I think that all christians or all members of any religion (leaving aside cults) have been duped. Or even most. They may believe in something that I do not believe in: they may be more likely to believe in things without proof. But “duped by a con”? No. Not even close. Can I still be an atheist, **Tejota**? ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/45 "2003-03-21T05:04:00Z")
Religion and politics, two subjects that are almost never agreed upon. You know, sometimes you just have to take a look at the person doing the posting, his past posts especially, and just take it with a grain of salt. My mama once told me that arguing with a signpost would get you more satisfaction than arguing with someone that can’t see past his nose. In most cases you will NOT change a person’s point of view. You just learn to live with it, or ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/46 "2003-03-21T05:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*While the Soviets may have called themselves atheists, they were as blinded by ideology as any fundamentalist Christian. All they did was substitute Stalin for Christ. Nice try. \*\* The historical dialectic basically was a religion in practice, in the sense that everything was supposed to be explained by it even though it lacked objective proof. The Soviets were indeed athiests though and put alot of pride into having stripped their society of the old superstitions. At least in principle, the adoption of communism was an attempt to run society on modernist principles. The push in the 19th century to apply the methods of science that had been so successful in explaining the physical world to the political and social world as well, that led to communist Russia. It was based on rational principles if you put it within its time frame. Unfortunately, the labor theory of value had been debunked 30 years before the October Revolution, so it didn’t have as much basis as they thought it did, but still it was intially an effort at a rational society based on scientific principles. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/47 "2003-03-21T05:48:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wilson \* > Can I still be an atheist, **Tejota**? Sorry, no. It’s outa the club for you… But seriously. How can you possibly call yourself and athiest and at the time time believe that the thiests are not fooling theselves (and each other) about the nature of reality? The one follows naturally from the other. Just as thiests are essentially required by their beliefs to think the same of Athiests. At best, you can respect the other’s right to be wrong, but If you think at they _aren’t_ wrong, then you aren’t an athiest. The bottom line here is that either believers or non-believers are _wrong_. They simply _can’t_ both be right. And yet neither Theist’s no Athiest’s belief systems allow for the possiblity of uncertainty. (those who do are called agnostics). ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/48 "2003-03-21T05:56:52Z")
What about them damn fajitas? * * * She said she loved me like a brother. She was from Arkansas, hence the Joy! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/49 "2003-03-21T05:57:38Z")
—How can you possibly call yourself and athiest and at the time time believe that the thiests are not fooling theselves (and each other) about the nature of reality?— Simple. ~BG != B~G The essential problem is that while people can try to justify their beliefs via arguments, and I can find these arguments wanting, I cannot conclude that someone’s belief rests on only those arguments which have/can be made to me. To say that, broadly, all such beliefs misstate reality is far beyond what I can warrant. I can only say that I cannot confirm or agree to affirm their portrayal of reality. —but If you think at they aren’t wrong, then you aren’t an athiest.— So says you. I guess if don’t believe the world was created in six days, I’m not a Christian. Stalinists were atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/50 "2003-03-21T06:40:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*And these people are a **large segment** of Christians? You do know that there are all types of Christians, and many Christians all over the world? Do you have cites that prove that a **large segment** of the Christians all over the world are in this “uncritical thinking” category? \*\* Considering that Pentecostal sects are the fastest growning sects and The Assemblies of God is the largest Protestant denomination in the US, I’d say, yes, it’s a fairly large segment. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/51 "2003-03-21T06:50:26Z")
Homebrew: Cites about the numbers, please? Proof that all of these people are gullible dummies? And I might mention here, one of my friends is a Pentacostal. Other than wearing skirts and dresses all the time, she is not gullible or weird or stupid. She doesn’t preach to me and has a great deal of common sense. She’s studying to be a nurse and is doing very well. So even _if_ there are certain denominations that are growing and you deem these denominations to be full of “gullible” dummies, how can you _prove_ that every member of these denominations are as you assume? My Pentecostal friend does not fit your profile. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/52 "2003-03-21T06:54:54Z")
according to: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/us\_rel2.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/us_rel2.htm) Catholics are far and away the largest Christian denomination in the US. followed by the Baptists and then Methodists. Pentecosts are 4th on the list but way fewer in number than the top three. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/53 "2003-03-21T07:00:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gatopescado \* > \*\*Do you have good fajitas down there? Have you ever seen any members of ZZ Top cruisin’ around? > > * * * > > Fagjunk Theology: Not just for sodomite propagandists anymore. \*\* 😃 Yeah, the fajitas are great! MoF I grilled some last night and had Margaritas as well. Haven’t seen the Top in a few years though…☹ I was in Helotes and had passed through LaGrange on the way…they were in SanAntone during Oktoberfest…damn what a party 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/54 "2003-03-21T07:05:16Z")
Just wanted to lighten the atmosphere a bit…we’re all friends here, right? Surely no-one HERE thinks I am stupid because I profess a belief in an intelligence that is superior to man’s. I just get tired of the name calling, that’s all. Peace ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/55 "2003-03-21T07:24:34Z")
Tejota wrote > [@](#): > > But seriously. How can you possibly call yourself and athiest and at the time time believe that the thiests are not fooling theselves (and each other) about the nature of reality? The one follows naturally from the other. Just as thiests are essentially required by their beliefs to think the same of Athiests. Actually, setting up false dichotomies like that is against my religion. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/56 "2003-03-21T07:54:23Z")
I’d just like to point out that most con men I’ve read about or seen on TV (either after conviction or with face modified) have said that it is impossible to con an honest man. Apparently, cons inevitably revolve around convincing the mark that he can get something for nothing, or for very little, and usually at someone else’s expense. Might not being a cynical sob atheist make you more susceptible to this? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/57 "2003-03-21T08:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, no, sure—not all Christians are “uncritical thinkers”, but a large segment are. That’s insulting. Do you see that as a personal insult to you? to the large segment? to the Christ? to all Christians? I am a Christian with training in Christian education and in evaluation of critical thinking skills. I don’t wish to insult you or anyone personally. But Gobear is correct. There is a _large segment_ of Christians who accept almost everything fed to them by ministers, elders, the Pope, the Bishop or fellow Christians – _without question_. For many of these Christians, that is what having faith means: To believe without question. There are people who take advantage of that. About thirty years ago I saw a movie about an evangelist, Marjoe Gortner, who began preaching when he was a child. Amazing to watch! As he grew older, he became a travelling preacher who used his considerable skills to “relieve people of their money.” He narrated the movie that was about his ability to do this. Tens of thousands of people bought it all – even after he confessed to manipulating them! Here is a link to something he said that will illustrate what _can_ happen when someone is gullible: [http://www.quotemeonit.com/gortnerm.html](http://www.quotemeonit.com/gortnerm.html) ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/58 "2003-03-21T08:31:35Z")
I think what some here have done is “put the cart before the horse” so to speak…some gullible people are Christian. BUT being Christian does not necessarily make you gullible. By the same token, some gullible people are atheists… Some people are gullible, perhaps their belief system perpetuates this gullibility by providing guidance to those with questions. As long as the answers provided console them and benefit humanity…what’s your beef? That you are (according to yourself, smarter than they are) hmmm, a bit arrogant, huh. I would much rather have a person seeking the advice from a Christian (generally speaking of course) as opposed to say a Nazi or maybe a Klansman. Or even an atheist in some cases, since “fear of God” is the only thing that keeps some people in check. Yeah, I know they (SS & KKK) claimed to be Christians as well. Well that’s bullshit and you know it. My point is: There’s always going to be a population of folks who will need and seek out spiritual and personal counseling. Where would you have them go? There aren’t enough shrinks to do this, not to mention the $$$ ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/59 "2003-03-21T09:07:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Zoe wrote: > > I am a Christian with training in Christian education and in evaluation of critical thinking skills. I don’t wish to insult you or anyone personally. But Gobear is correct. There is a large segment of Christians who accept almost everything fed to them by ministers, elders, the Pope, the Bishop or fellow Christians – without question. I remember that movie, “Marjoe”. That guy went on to be a regular actor. My parents made a point that my sisters and I see it, just to show how some con-men work. Some people (of any religious stripe) fall for that bullshit, but how can you prove the percentage, merely by citing the amount of members of each particular denomination? I might be technically a member of one of the “suspect” denominations, and yet my parents wanted my sisters and me to see the “Marjoe” film to warn us away from con-men like him. But how will you, (or gobear, or anyone) know that without knowing _us_? You just merely lump us in with the other gullible sheep and that is it. And besides, gobear made a claim that even smart Christians like Polycarp and beagledave _still_ are more gullible than your average atheist. Even the _“smart”_ Christians like these esteemed Dopers are still more gullible than your average atheist. That’s his opinion. Is that not insulting? So I’d like to ask gobear and Tejota and the rest once again—you wanna offer to accompany Poly or beagle or tomndebb car-shopping, because they, as theists, are obviously more vulnerable to con-artists? They need to be “saved from themselves”? Because, after all, they’ve already bought into one con, so it’s _obvious_ that they’ll buy into more. And, I can’t remember who said it on this thread previously, but they brought up a good point: if the fact that theists already bought into one con makes them not “critical thinkers” and more apt to be scammed by con artists, does this mean that by contrast, your average atheist has _never_ been conned, _ever?_ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932/60 "2003-03-21T11:58:43Z")
OK, maybe I’m being wierd again, but I’m actually _less_ likely to trust someone who makes a point of telling me he’s a Christian because I’ve encountered too many people who expect me to suspend my judgement because they’ve said that. The God I have chosen to believe in is tangible to me,albeit not with any of the standard 5 senses, and has proven His existence to me, although not in a way which would satisfy any of our resident Atheists. He is also the same God who commands me to love Him with all my mind, and who sent out the disciples, telling them, “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” To me, that means, “_Don’t_ be gullible.” Are there a lot of gullible Christians out there? Of course. I’d be willing to bet that I’m as disgusted as anyone else out here that Robert Tilton is still in business, and if I ever were to take up book burning, it’d be tough to decide whether I should start with L. Ron Hubbard’s or Timothy LaHaye’s books first. At least the former don’t claim to be based on sound theology. The thing is, not everyone is a questioning, awkward cuss like so many of us out here. Christianity done well is a refuge for such people. The ordinary, everyday Christians I’ve known (aka the ones who don’t get the publicity) have created churches which are safe havens and which look after and protect the vulnerable. They are aware that Jesus said, “Feed my sheep”, not “Fleece them.” My church has given me money when I needed it, and shown me love when I didn’t think anyone else was willing to, including my parents (I was a teenager at the time, what can I say?). I am naive and childlike at times, and there are things I desparately need and want to believe. I don’t deny that. I also have used religion as a crutch at times, but what’s a person with a (metaphorically) broken leg supposed to do? I don’t think I’m gullible – if anything, I’m far closer to the con artists I grumble about. If I ever wind up playing cards with you guys, I warn you that I _do_ bluff, and, though I’ll never tell you an outright lie, I will twist the truth into something that would make a pretzel look straight. If someone chooses to think less of me for what I believe, that’s his choice. I am what I am, and some of that is contradictory. I’ve also been disliked for far more trivial reasons. I understand why people become atheists, and I sympathize. Under different circumstances, I could have become one myself, and I realize that saying, "Apparently God had other plans. :rolleyes: " is one of the more meaningless things I could say to an Atheist. Think of me what you will; I know what I am. CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poly-tom-zev-lib-brick-beagledave-gullible/162932.md?page=4)