# Polycarp did you forget to take you pills? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640 "2003-12-03T03:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/201 "2003-12-04T17:47:06Z")
Left Hand of Dorkness: > [@](#): > > If and when this guy dies (“If” – remember, we’re not assuming we’re right here) Speak for yourself. I have no compunction about assuming Poly is wrong. In light of the zero evidence presented it seems like the reasonable null hypothesis to me. > [@](#): > > If the guy dies from ODing on airplane glue, and Poly maintains he was Jesus, I’ll be skeptical. But you’re not skeptical now? How open minded you are. Be sure to stay vertical, I don’t want that brain to fall out. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/202 "2003-12-04T17:47:15Z")
[Brentwood Presbyterian Church](http://www.bpcusa.org/Sermons/sermon81102.asp) This sums it up for me. > [@](#): > > We are all of us would-be Supermen. > > Sometimes we take it to extremes. > > That happened in a story John Ortberg recounts in his book, The Life You’ve Always Wanted: > > Leon, > Joseph, and > Clyde > > all suffered from a Messiah complex. It was not just a touch of narcissism or a dash of grandiosity. They were three chronic psychiatric patients at a hospital in Ypsilanti, Michigan, all diagnosed with psychotic delusional disorder, grandiose type. Each one maintained he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Each one believed he was the central figure around whom the world revolved: the three little messiahs. > > Psychologist Milton Rokeach wrote The Three Christs of Ypsilanti about his attempts to help these men come to grips with the truth about themselves and learn to be just Leon, Joseph, and Clyde. > > Rokeach spent two years working with the men, but change came hard. It was as if they were not sure they could bear to live if they weren’t who they thought they were. They could be very rational in other aspects of life but, as Rokeach put it, they would hold onto messianic delusions, “even though they are grotesque, ego-defensive distortions of reality.” > > With little to lose, Rokeach decided to try an experiment. He put the three men into one small group. For two years the three delusional messiahs were assigned adjacent beds, ate every meal together, worked together at the same job, and met daily for group discussions. Rokeach wanted to see if rubbing up against other would-be messiahs might diminish their delusion – a kind of messianic 12-step recovery group. > > The experiment led to some interesting conversations. One of the men would claim, “I’m the messiah, the Son of God. I am on a mission. I was sent here to save the earth.” > > How do you know? > > Rokeach would ask. > > God told me. > > And one of the other patients would counter, > > I never told you any such thing. > > Aim for the Three Messiahs and you end up playing the Three Stooges – Larry, Moe, and Curly arguing over their place in the Trinity. > > As we read about this, we don’t know whether to laugh or cry. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/203 "2003-12-04T17:47:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rimshotgdansk \* > \*\*I’m dying to see how this plays out. \*\* Yeah, but the question is whether you’ll show up three posts later… ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/204 "2003-12-04T17:53:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\ ***LHoD** , I would think the difference is that Christians who believe that their guy was the Messiah believe that they have stronger evidence than some guy’s postings on a website. Personally I don’t think there is anything to that claim either. But in judging how rational the belief is I would take into account that he seems to have made some sort of strong impression on a lot of contemporaneous (or semi-contemporaneous) people, that a whole lot of other intelligent people have also believed it etc. etc. By contrast, the belief that you alone have figured out that someone is another incarnation of same based on his postings on a website seems a whole lot shakier. YMMV. \*\* But Jesus V1.0 started out with no followers, then a dozen or so and that grew. Perhaps there are some non-Dopers who also make up the 12 with **Poly** and his wife. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/205 "2003-12-04T17:57:13Z")
Hmmmmm, [http://www.wilwheaton.net/](http://www.wilwheaton.net/) is still going. Wil’s got a book deal, too! The kid rocks–too bad about that Wesley thing. And I guess he’s not God, either, though it would’ve been surprising. I, as one of the more half-assed Christians on this board (note to dropzone: Finish your Lenten devotional. They need it at the printer’s.) am happy that my friend and mentor Polycarp has a belief that is as odd as some of mine. One can be too conventional, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/206 "2003-12-04T17:58:14Z")
Regardless of the ways in which people can mince someone’s posts and even an entire thread or two in a few days time to a fine paste, some people have a **history** on this message Board of being generally sane, generally knowledgeable, and generally rational. I’m willing to give Polycarp the benefit of the doubt. He has history. People don’t “turn loony” overnight. People do, however, on occasion make mistakes, say things they didn’t think through fully, say things that weren’t clarifed enough or which are difficult to accurately express in words, or speak from a general sense and general tense that is interpreted as an exact and precise claim. And sometimes, in an attempt to explain themselves or clarify further, they end up unintentionally “digging a deeper hole”. It happens all the time. Like I said, Polycarp has a long, strong, positive history here. If further and repeated clarification shows that he is indeed making extraordinary claims without proof or basis, then that would be a different matter. But until then, he has my benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/207 "2003-12-04T17:58:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*But you’re not skeptical now? How open minded you are. Be sure to stay vertical, I don’t want that brain to fall out. \*\* Hey, fuck you too, you sanctimonious ass. You’re every bit as bad as **Libertarian**. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/208 "2003-12-04T18:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > But Jesus V1.0 started out with no followers, then a dozen or so and that grew. Perhaps there are some non-Dopers who also make up the 12 with **Poly** and his wife. Well it’s quite possible that those early guys were completely off the wall - I’m talking about contemporary Christians. Someone who maintains that those guys were rational would presumably tell you that they didn’t come to that belief until confronted with some very strong evidence, e.g. prolonged exposure to his personality, miracles etc. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/209 "2003-12-04T18:05:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Una Persson \* > **If further and repeated clarification shows that he is indeed making extraordinary claims without proof or basis, then that would be a different matter.** A different matter indeed: so far, the only claim he’s made is that he has a hunch, and that claim is imminently ordinary. Nobody, I think, doubts that he has a hunch. Some people are deliberately or sloppily misinterpreting “hunch” to mean something other than what it means. If and when he starts claiming that he does **in fact** know who the messiah is, then subjecting his **belief** to rigorous standards might make sense. At this point, it’s foolishness. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/210 "2003-12-04T18:06:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > **OK, but what do you think? Do you really believe that all supernatural events are equally (im)plausible?** Yes. > [@](#): > > **That all irrational beliefs are equally irrational?** Yes. Rational and irrational are binary choices. There are no degrees of irrationality. You can’t be a little bit pregnant, either you are or you aren’t. > [@](#): > > **That a guy who believes in the existence of space aliens is as nutty as a guy who thinks Al Gore is a space alien? (What about George Bush? ;))** Ok, I’m going to qualify this one. A belief in the possiblity of extraterrestrial life, or even a reasoned conclusion that life would have to evolve on more than one planet in such an immense universe is not not supernatural or irrational. A belief that aliens _have already been here_ and will return in some indefinite future is no more rational than suspecting George Bush (or more likely Michael Jackson ;)) is an alien. > [@](#): > > \*\*As for how you can determine, it is essentially the same method that you use to determine plausible/implausible to begin with. Generally the answer is not a yes/no but rather a degree of likelihood, which might vary. > > I think it is very unlikely that Lee Harvey Oswald was part of a conspiracy to kill JFK. It is also very unlikely that Bill Clinton systematically murdered his political opponents over the years. The former scenario is a lot more likely. > > In addition, in some cases, such as this one (and the space alien example) the second belief requires full acceptance of the first one, but also adds some additional speculation, making it more unlikely.\*\* I don’t think your analogy works because neither example is _prima facia_ impossible. Supernatural events _are_ impossible until you can prove otherwise. Since there is no empirical evidence whatever that any supernatural event has ever occurred, all speculation about such events is equally unsupportable by rational standards. One impossible thing cannot be _more_ impossible than another impossible thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/211 "2003-12-04T18:06:53Z")
Maybe Polycarp has fallen for Benjamin Creme/Maitreya nonsense? UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/212 "2003-12-04T18:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Rational and irrational are binary choices. There are no degrees of irrationality. I disagree. > [@](#): > > A belief that aliens _have already been here_ and will return in some indefinite future is no more rational than suspecting George Bush (or more likely Michael Jackson ;)) is an alien. Disagree here as well. I also think your position is absurd, and am skeptical as to whether you yourself actually believe it (unless we are miscommunicating). > [@](#): > > Supernatural events _are_ impossible until you can prove otherwise. There is no such thing as “impossible until …” Either something is possible or impossible (your pregnancy analogy has its proper place here). By saying that something is impossible you are foreclosing the possibility that you can prove otherwise - by acknowledging that you might prove otherwise you are implicitly acknowledging that it is not impossible but merely unlikely. Which brings in the question of degrees of likelihood. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/213 "2003-12-04T18:34:33Z")
I agree with **Izzy** that there are degrees of irrationality. As suggested before, I’ve met Christians (well, one Christian) who told me that they could see demons hovering behind people’s shoulders coaching them on toward sin. I’ve also met Christians who believe that the universe is filled with an impersonal force called variously Love, Buddha Nature, or God. Neither belief seems to me to be founded in reason, and I see no reason to subscribe to either belief. However, the demons-over-the-shoulder folks strike me as a lot nuttier than the Impersonal God folks. **Poly’s** belief that Yeshua was the messiah, however, seems to me to be no more or less rational than his hunch that the guy on the Internet is the messiah. Other than the fact that the first one is a belief and the second is a hunch, they’re both based on little more than faith – to my eyes, there’s equally weak rational basis for either. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing: faith certainly has its place, and reason doesn’t always trump faith. But I don’t see this as a case where reason holds much sway. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/214 "2003-12-04T18:38:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes. Rational and irrational are binary choices. There are no degrees of irrationality. You can’t be a little bit pregnant, either you are or you aren’t. Excuse me? The human mind and certainly human beliefs are NOT binary. We are not a light switch that’s toggled on and off. Heck analog would be a simplification of gigantic proportions. By this method a person that goes to church once a week is equal to the guy that runs godhatesfags. I hope you clarify as it stands ridiculous would be the kindest word I could use for it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/215 "2003-12-04T18:43:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*Cause it seems to me you are apologizing for Poly, as it seems you like to do for liberal Christians in general. Just my opinion, but I think to be consistent with what you have stated, you should not have much problem, just saying “Poly you’re a loon." However, you just like him too much for that don’t you. - Maybe, but I sincerely don’t think his beliefs are any _more_ loony than any other religious beliefs and at least his beliefs are grounded in a genuine desire to make them compatible with basic ideals of compassion and tolerance, even if he has to rationalize or stretch a bit to do that. > [@](#): > > **Duh, I think I have stated as much. You should not be directing this at me but rather at Poly. > Duh, again for the first part. For the latter part for one to be able to trust Jesus (or his biographers) in what he/they say about redemption and salvation (extraordinary claims) as well as morality he/they should have an extraordinarily reliable track record. > What are you telling me this for? It’s not my point, which you quoted above. My point is that this time, this Jesus is falsifiable, unless Poly wants to define him as a fairly regular guy leading a fairly regular life, no different then all the other loonies who thought they were god.** My point was that the death of a presumptive Messiah may not necessarily be _accepted_ as falsification by everybody, no matter what you and i may think. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m curious Diogenes why are you such a sympathizer? \*\* Because I see no malice or judgement or hostility or arrogance in any of **Poly’s** posts. He doesn’t want to force me to be a Christian, he doesn’t want to teach my daughter creationism or force her to pray in school. He doesn’t hate gay people or atheists or Jews. He shows more scholarship on his religion than a lot of people do (even though it is admittedly a faith based schoalrship), and he’s basically just a decent, thoughtful and tolerant guy. He’s not an asshole. There are plenty on the Christian right who _are_ assholes. _Colossal_ assholes, some of them. I’d rather expend my energy going after toxic beliefs than compassionate ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/216 "2003-12-04T18:44:10Z")
**Una Persson** , you don’t think it could be Jerry C. and Miss Brunner? So **Poly** has a hunch he knows someone who may become the new messiah. Well granted, most people with such hunches are somewhat barmey. But I don’t think it’s time to call out the men in white coats quite yet. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/217 "2003-12-04T18:49:06Z")
The reason **Polycarp** and others have rehabilitated Christianity for me is because they follow a message of love and act that way, _despite_ their beliefs, which I feel uncomfortable with. Adding another belief I feel uncomfortable with makes fairly little difference to me. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/218 "2003-12-04T18:53:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness \* > \*\*A different matter indeed: so far, the only claim he’s made is that he has a hunch, and that claim is imminently ordinary. \*\* Maybe we’re not talking about the same thing. My post did not address whether it was a “hunch” or “claim” I said that “If further and repeated clarification shows that he is indeed making extraordinary claims without proof or basis, then that would be a different matter.” Thus, regardless of whether it is a “hunch” or a “claim”, I only said it would be a different matter if, in fact, he was “making extraordinary claims without proof or basis”. If he’s not even making a “claim” in the first place, then the whole thing is derailed from the start. But even if he was making a “claim”, my point is that I give him the benefit of the doubt pending much further explaination, given his long positive posting history and all those things I said re: mistakes etc. Do you see what I’m getting at? ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/219 "2003-12-04T18:54:56Z")
So… not to point out the 900 lb. gorilla in the porta-potty… but what if **Polycarp** is right? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/220 "2003-12-04T18:56:50Z")
**Diogenes** : > [@](#): > > He’s not an asshole. There are plenty on the Christian right who are assholes. Colossal assholes, some of them. I’d rather expend my energy going after toxic beliefs than compassionate ones. Me, I’d rather not go after toxic beliefs – I’d rather go after assholes. (shuttup, you know what I mean) **LaurAnge** phrased it beautifully. As long as someone’s a decent person, I don’t care what they believe. If they’re an asswipe, on the other hand, **I still don’t care what they believe**. Their religious beliefs are their business andnot mine, just as mine are my business and not theirs. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640.md?page=12)