# Polycarp to explain his religious inconsistencies **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178 "2003-10-29T04:50:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/141 "2003-11-01T17:46:53Z")
Thanks, **Baker**. To paraphrase a comment made by, IIRC, either **Coldie** or **Lynn B.** some months ago, just because it’s the Pit doesn’t mean that you _have_ to let loose with a stream of language that would make **Chief Scott** go :o. I do have answers to **badchad** , most recent series of allegations; that doesn’t mean I’m obliged to answer every one of them. I seem to be getting no cooperation from him in terms of attempting to understand how I can reasonably hold my position. If someone else sees any of them as grievously inconsistent, I’ll attempt to clarify. As for **Kalhoun** ’s comment, I can forestall him a bunch of research. I have no doubt that I have said any number of opinions in language that sounds authoritative. Contextually, however, they were religious assertions, said in direct or indirect response to an OP seeking views on issues of faith. (Similarly, I know I’ve asserted my POV on questions of constitutional law in opposition to **Dewey** , probably regularly without an IMO or similar term inserted.) What such discussions have in common is that they are on issues of interest on which no consensus exists; a statement is thus by implication normally one of opinion, hopefully grounded in facts and logic but nonetheless opinion. Only a very limited selection of facts exists; generally in such debates it is customary to set them apart as such, and to express one’s firmly held views and beliefs without an “I think that…” or “Good Catholics believe that…” which is in fact understood. I doubt strongly that Messrs. Justices Kennedy, Douglas, and Brennan have [ever used the phrase “substantive due process” in the course of a formal opinion; that does not mean that **Dewey** is wrong in ascribing that POV to them, withut being required to insert an appropriate collection of weasel-words to make clear that it is his (or his authorities’) perception of their methodology. Likewise, I feel comfortable, in the context of a discussion on religion, in stating my firmly held beliefs in the expectation that they will not be seen as my claiming factuality for them – to the contrary, if I should find it necessary to discuss Biblical inerrancy, I will make factual statements regarding the creedal positions of others and assert them distinctly as such. (E.g., **Shodan** or I can state “The Catholic Church obliges acceptance of the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception on its faithful” as accurately as can **tomndebb** – it’s a statement of fact on the dogmatic pronouncement of a church we do not belong to of a doctrine we do not hold.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/142 "2003-11-01T21:36:29Z")
**Poly** , you rock. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/143 "2003-11-02T04:38:49Z")
## **Shodan:** The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” * * * > [@](#): > > Apparently the teaching on divorce does not apply to everyone, and the ability to form and maintain a stable marriage is not universal. > > Thus the teaching is not universally applicable. Sorry Shodan. Your verse in no way allows for divorce unless you close your eyes and use a lot of imagination. His disciples were asking him if “it is better not to marry” they did not ask him “is it ok to divorce.” You should know this since you quoted it. **Saint Zero:** ## quote: Originally posted by badchad What and ignore all that stuff about : ## Jesus burning people in a lake of fire. > [@](#): > > I haven’t seen where he does this. Example? Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. I hope furnace of fire is close enough to you. The lake of fire descriptions come from Revelation. Revelation 20:12, 15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life…And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. **Baker:** > [@](#): > > Me? Although I try to be a good Christian, if I had been attacked the way Poly has, I would probably be trying to rip badchad a new one by now. But Poly’s responses, whether one agrees with him or not, have been calm and polite, and that appears to be driving badchad nuts. Don’t give Polycarp props for which he falls short. He has displayed anger with me several times and I think the words “fuck you asshole" (IIRC) came from Poly’s keyboard. Of course when he gets angry I remind him that it is a sin, which I think drives him nuts. This negative feedback seems to have helped him keep his profanity off line. > [@](#): > > I would advise him to step back, take a while to cool off, and then simply agree to disagree. I’m sure you would, considering my taking apart his belief system is also taking apart yours, you being a good Christian and all. **Polycarp:** > [@](#): > > I do have answers to badchad, most recent series of allegations; that doesn’t mean I’m obliged to answer every one of them. I’d encourage you to answer only what you think you can and to be honest about those which you can’t. > [@](#): > > I seem to be getting no cooperation from him in terms of attempting to understand how I can reasonably hold my position. Look you numbskull, my entire argument with you is that you **can’t reasonably hold your position.** To be kind I have been calling your position “contradictory” and “inconsistent”, however those words are euphemisms for a system which is just plain childish. > [@](#): > > If someone else sees any of them as grievously inconsistent, I’ll attempt to clarify. Godzillatemple already said he did. However I see you had no problem ignoring his questions, many of which are identical to mine. He even asked politely which further demonstrates that it is the content of the questions that have you shaken, not the tone. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/144 "2003-11-02T05:03:17Z")
> [@](#): > > **Look you numbskull, my entire argument with you is that you can’t reasonably hold your position** Indeed. And when you then refuse to admit the possibility that you are incorrect, you prove that you’re not debating in good faith. Which is hardly a surprise. Numbskull indeed. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/145 "2003-11-02T05:21:32Z")
g8rguy > [@](#): > > Indeed. And when you then refuse to admit the possibility that you are incorrect, you prove that you’re not debating in good faith. There is always the possibility that I am incorrect about the reasonableness of Polycarp’s inconsistent belief system, much like there is the possibility that the sun won’t rise tomorrow. However your talking about that with a gross statement rather than specifically showing that Polycarp’s beliefs aren’t self contradictory is only further evidence that I am correct. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/146 "2003-11-02T05:47:55Z")
Is it just me, or is anyone else getting some mondo Phaedrus vibes? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/147 "2003-11-02T05:54:57Z")
**badchad** : You butterfly ballot glitter refuse! Get this into your skull: As a long-winded discussion showed to me a long time ago, I found that being a hard agnostic is the same as a soft atheist, therefore remember this: It took 8000 years for men to forget about the Egyptian gods, it will take just as much for current faiths to fade away, our purpose in life is therefore to make sure religions remain or become benevolent, not to stamp them out, In all my years of reading **Polycarp** ’s posts he has proven to be, what a Christian is supposed to be. One of the big criticism infidels have of believers is to see many people of faith actually forcing their views on us, or behaving in a non Christian manner, Poly is not one of them. And even tough I agree with many of your points, that last exchange with **Baker** shows to me it is you who is failing to make a point, that “fuck you asshole” was never said in this tread, if you have a beef for a an insult he launched at you, (frankly I doubt he said that even in the pit) you should have pitted him, seeing the context of you clearly calling **Polycarp** a numbscull, I think I will go with g8rguy conclusion about you, even if I am a non believer. – On preview: of course you are correct, you are also a correct jerk. Choose your fights wisely, when even those who agree with you are apalled of your methods, you should take notice. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/148 "2003-11-02T06:00:29Z")
**badchad** wrote “I think the words “fuck you asshole” (IIRC) came from Poly’s keyboard. " Do you have a hard cite for that? Or are you trying to smear \*\*Polycarp \*\*, and weasel out with that weak IIRC? Put up or shut up. Don’t put words in his mouth or keyboard. **badchad** , another thing. You are demanding Poly explain his beliefs. Do you have any religious beliefs that _you_ can explain with the same “consistency” you are demanding of Poly? Or are you _afraid_ to state your beliefs, if any? Or do the rest of us Dopers not have the right to question you? ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/149 "2003-11-02T06:22:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*There is always the possibility that I am incorrect about the reasonableness of Polycarp’s inconsistent belief system, much like there is the possibility that the sun won’t rise tomorrow. However your talking about that with a gross statement rather than specifically showing that Polycarp’s beliefs aren’t self contradictory is only further evidence that I am correct. \*\* When you obviously already have your mind made up and refuse to accept that a reasonable explanation is, in fact, a reasonable explanation, a charge of debating in bad faith is dead accurate. A brief lessen on this complicated concept known as “burden of proof” is evidently in order. In a nutshell: if you think he is self-contradictory, it is your job to prove it. It is not _my_ job to prove you wrong. Which is good, since because I am not a sock for **Poly** , I can’t claim to know what the man believes, and I can hence not prove much anything about his beliefs. That you think me suggesting that you are debating in bad faith somehow supports your contentions about **Polycarp** just goes to show that a second charge, that you are an utter moron, is equally accurate. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/150 "2003-11-02T06:32:06Z")
GIGObuster: > [@](#): > > It took 8000 years for men to forget about the Egyptian gods, it will take just as much for current faiths to fade away, our purpose in life is therefore to make sure religions remain or become benevolent, not to stamp them out As a fellow infidel I think our purpose in life is what we make of it rather than what is dictated to us. From my reading of the straight dope, the written purpose of this website is to fight ignorance, not mold believers into being more benevolent. While I agree the latter may be good for society, it is not the same as fighting ignorance. And it seems that you and I agree that Polycarp’s views as stated are ignorant. > [@](#): > > In all my years of reading Polycarp’s posts he has proven to be, what a Christian is supposed to be. One of the big criticism infidels have of believers is to see many people of faith actually forcing their views on us, or behaving in a non Christian manner, Poly is not one of them. That has never been one of my primary criticisms, rather that their views are dumb. From what I read of the bible, it **is** behaving in the Christian manner to force your views on others, else said others suffer eternal punishment. It’s also Christian (according to the Christ) to think they deserve to be punished eternally. > [@](#): > > And even tough I agree with many of your points, that last exchange with Baker shows to me it is you who is failing to make a point, that “fuck you asshole” was never said in this tread, if you have a beef for a an insult he launched at you, (frankly I doubt he said that even in the pit Will it make a difference if I provide a link? > [@](#): > > On preview: of course you are correct, you are also a correct jerk. I’m comfortable with that. > [@](#): > > Choose your fights wisely, when even those who agree with you are apalled of your methods, you should take notice. Well that’s just it. I have a style of argument if it were, which coincidentally differs very little from how the liberal Christians on this board lovingly post disparaging remarks to their fundamentalist brothers. Unfortunately I seem to be one of the few who is willing to take the liberal version of Christianity to task for its unreasonableness and hypocrisy in this regard. If you and the other brights on this board want to take over my argument, and can do so with better methods, I will consider my comments unnecessary much as I don’t think it necessary for me to get involved in the evolution vs. creationism debates. If however you think it best to replace one stupid belief system for another then I will likely continue to post in the manner in which I am most accustomed. Let me know if you still think this is unreasonable and why. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/151 "2003-11-02T06:38:01Z")
g8rguy > [@](#): > > A brief lessen on this complicated concept known as “burden of proof” is evidently in order. In a nutshell: if you think he is self-contradictory, it is your job to prove it. Been there done that. That’s what this thread is about. I cited many examples of his contradictions, it is not a matter of opinion and it takes willful ignorance not to see this. Start at the OP, you’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/152 "2003-11-02T06:45:07Z")
**badchad** said “will it make a difference if I provide a link?” when responding to \*\*GIGObuster’s expressed doubt that \*\*Polycarp uttered the words “fuck you asshole”. Then, of course, he failed to provide the alleged link. Again, all I can say is “Do you have a cite for that false quote you attributed to Polycarp?” ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/153 "2003-11-02T06:52:57Z")
Baker: > [@](#): > > badchad wrote “I think the words “fuck you asshole” (IIRC) came from Poly’s keyboard. " > > Do you have a hard cite for that? Or are you trying to smear Polycarp , and weasel out with that weak IIRC? Put up or shut up. Don’t put words in his mouth or keyboard. I’m pretty sure I can dig up a cite that’s pretty close to my recollection for you. But first I want you to state that if I do so you will either apologize to me for your disparaging comments, or take back what you said about Polycarp being so calm and polite. Is it a deal? > [@](#): > > badchad, another thing. You are demanding Poly explain his beliefs. Do you have any religious beliefs that you can explain with the same “consistency” you are demanding of Poly? I’m an atheist. > [@](#): > > Or are you afraid to state your beliefs, if any? Or do the rest of us Dopers not have the right to question you? I have stated before that I am an atheist, and I have been answering relevant questions to the OP throughout this thread. If you have a problem with atheism and my version of it (not that there are many versions) then start your own thread, don’t hijack mine, which I will remind you all again, Polycarp told me to start. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/154 "2003-11-02T06:56:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > Well that’s just it. I have a style of argument if it were, which coincidentally differs very little from how the liberal Christians on this board lovingly post disparaging remarks to their fundamentalist brothers. Unfortunately I seem to be one of the few who is willing to take the liberal version of Christianity to task for its unreasonableness and hypocrisy in this regard. If you and the other brights on this board want to take over my argument, and can do so with better methods, I will consider my comments unnecessary much as I don’t think it necessary for me to get involved in the evolution vs. creationism debates. You are dense; I do take them to task, but with kinder words, not with the bazooka to kill the fly attitude. > [@](#): > > If however you think it best to replace one stupid belief system for another then I will likely continue to post in the manner in which I am most accustomed. Let me know if you still think this is unreasonable and why. Right here is why it is unreasonable: I said you were also a correct jerk and you said: > [@](#): > > I’m comfortable with that. Not in this board, you just admitted to a bannable offence. Oh, and calling Polycarp a numbscull too is also unreasonable, when he did nothing here to deserve that. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/155 "2003-11-02T06:59:54Z")
[You Know What I Think Better Than I Do?!?!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162117) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Polycarp_ > **Fuck you. And the high horse you rode in on.** Can’t say I disagree with **Polycarp** ’s statement. Sometimes harshness is called for, and **badchad** deserves whatever he gets. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/156 "2003-11-02T07:08:30Z")
Baker: ## quote: badchad wrote “I think the words “fuck you asshole” (IIRC) came from Poly’s keyboard. " ## Do you have a hard cite for that? Or are you trying to smear Polycarp , and weasel out with that weak IIRC? Put up or shut up. Don’t put words in his mouth or keyboard. I’m pretty sure I can dig up a cite that’s pretty close to my recollection for you. But first I want you to state that if I do so you will either apologize to me for your disparaging comments, or take back what you said about Polycarp being so calm and polite. Is it a deal? No, **badchad** , it’s not a deal. Because you can’t provide a cite anywhere _near_ to what you said you could. And because I made no “disparaging comments”. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/157 "2003-11-02T07:15:25Z")
GIGObuster > [@](#): > > You are dense; I do take them to task, but with kinder words, not with the bazooka to kill the fly attitude. Apparently I didn’t notice. You must be doing it with a flyswatter kill a grizzly attitude. > [@](#): > > Not in this board, you just admitted to a bannable offence. Hehe, I admitted to being right but impolite. Yeah, I’m way off base, hey wait a minute aren’t we in the pit? > [@](#): > > Oh, and calling Polycarp a numbscull too is also unreasonable, when he did nothing here to deserve that Except promote what I call unreasonable beliefs (in which you said I was correct). Would you call that brainy? Also by grand benevolent grounds do you deem to call me names? ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/158 "2003-11-02T07:17:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > \*\*g8rguy > However your talking about that with a gross statement rather than specifically showing that Polycarp’s beliefs aren’t self contradictory is only further evidence that I am correct. \*\* You want specifics about the ineffable? Get in line, chump. Who wouldn’t? Other people aren’t whetstones for your soul, convenient grist to prove you “correct.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/159 "2003-11-02T07:22:28Z")
Ahh, I see he was pitting **badchad** and the quote came from the OP, sorry **badchad** , with the context of were it came from, I see that **Poly** had the right to use the F bomb, no wonder you were not “willing” to link to it. It is worse than you said: you are in reality a Jerkus Maximuss, a very special kind of jerk; and Yes, even in the pit, admmiting to, and being one, is not kosher. ;j ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178/160 "2003-11-02T07:23:05Z")
Baker: > [@](#): > > No, badchad, it’s not a deal. Because you can’t provide a cite anywhere near to what you said you could. Desmo already stole my thunder and provided the cite. Look it up. Not only does Poly say “fuck you” to me he also calls me an “asshole”. Seems you owe me an apology for questioning my integrity. I wager your not man enough to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-to-explain-his-religious-inconsistencies/210178.md?page=9)