# Polygamy advocacy **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2021, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011 "2021-03-01T06:47:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/201 "2022-06-09T13:47:50Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I tend to agree, but I think the biggest issue is that the groups that practice Mormon polygamy are cults, and it’s hard to separate the abuses that are a result of plural marriage from the abuses that come from being a member of a controlling, abusive cult. I hadn’t gotten into that much detail with my post, but Mormon style polygamy is problematic, even when not practiced by the fundamentalist breakaway groups. This is in contrast with polyamory, which seems to be more egalitarian in nature. One of the difficulties in attempting to separate the abuses which are the result of plural marriages from those which derive from being a member of a controlling, abusive cult is that there are parts of Mormonism, especially the fundamental aspects, which many people consider to be cult-like. People drawn to polygamy are those who extoll rigid patriarchy. Mormon polygamy is not limited to members of the various breakaway branches, but also includes a number of independent adherents. Because the main LDS Church has never disavowed the doctrine of polygamy, as conservative members start to dive into the deeper teachings of the church, some people become converted to this lifestyle, either by their own research or through other polygamists. Mormonism is all about the afterlife, and the religion’s raison d’etre is its role in allowing only its members to achieve eternal salvation. The purpose of the ubiquitous Mormon temples are to perform rites which seal families together in the afterlife. These secret rites were born in as a cover for founder Joseph Smith’s hidden polygamous marriages. Mormonism has so many aspects of patriarchy, but one example is that traditionally Mormon men were resurrected by the power of God, but women needed to be called by their husbands to join them in the afterlife. While not all women completely accepted this doctrine, those who agreed to polygamy would be more likely to. Even in mainstream Mormonism, the power of men is unequal. After an LDS temple marriage, which is supposed to bind the couple together in both this life and after, a temple divorce is difficult to obtain. Without the temple divorce, the couple is still married in the afterlife, even if they remarry other partners, and even have children with the new spouses. Those children would belong to the original husband, and the second husband would have nothing. Because the principle of polygamy has not been disavowed by the Church, this means that a divorced husband can get married again in the temple to another woman and would be married to both the new wife and the ex-wife for all eternity. OTOH, the ex-wife cannot enjoy a temple marriage and can only have a temporal marriage, and any children would go to the ex-husband. Traditionally, temple divorces were difficult to obtain, and husbands have extracted demands in exchange for their cooperation. This seems similar to the points that @puzzlegal makes about the Orthodox Jews, although Mormonism doesn’t technically have the man “owning” the woman, just that he holds the key to her eternal soul. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/202 "2022-06-09T13:55:17Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > any children would go to the ex-husband. In what sense do children “go” to their mother’s eternal husband? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/203 "2022-06-09T14:21:33Z")
In Mormon doctrine, families are “forever,” meaning for “time (this life) and all eternity (the afterlife).” Parents are “sealed” to their children and the children are sealed to their parents. After the resurrection, and all that gets sorted out, Mormon families go to the VIP heaven and can be with their families forever. Non-Mormons cannot be with their families. The offspring of a temporal marriage of a divorced woman would be sealed to the divorced woman and her ex-husband, not to the woman and her second husband. Let’s make up some names to illustrate it. “Al” and “Peggy” get a Mormon temple marriage, and have children together, but then get a civil divorce. Both remarry. Al in the temple to Marcy (because husband can be sealed to more than one wife) and Peggy in a civil marriage to Jefferson, because she isn’t eligible for a temple marriage as a divorced woman. Subsequently, Peggy has children with Jefferson. (In this fictitious situation, Marcy and Jefferson are not married to each other. It doesn’t matter if they had been at one time.) Al and Peggy never get a temple marriage and eventually everyone dies. In the afterlife, Al is polygamously married to Marcy and their children are sealed to both of them. Peggy is still married to Al and the children they had together prior to the divorce are sealed to both of them. Any children Peggy had with Jefferson are taken from Jefferson and are sealed to Al and Peggy. Jefferson is SOL. No wife and no children in the afterlife. As he is not married polygamously, according to early Mormon doctrine, he is not eligible for the Super VIP section of the VIP Heaven and consequently cannot have his own world. These was actually taught when I was younger, but recently they avoid spelling it out, although they haven’t disavowed it. I worked with a guy who was in that situation. He had married a divorced LDS woman and then had children together. According to his bishop, not only would the step-children belong to the ex-husband but also his own children with his wife. This is the real power in Mormonism. The law is only secondary. If a person is deemed to not be worthy, their children are take away from them for all eternity. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/204 "2022-06-09T14:29:52Z")
It seems odd that the children have no agency about whom they spend time with in the afterlife. I see a lot of unhappiness in Mormon “heaven”. ---
**Author:** ![MrLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@MrLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrLee)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/205 "2022-06-09T17:43:53Z")
I remember reading somewhere that in certain societal contexts where economic inequality is particularly pronounced, and where marriage is essentially a trade where the man offers finance and security and the woman offers sex, servitude and fertility, it is quite logical for a woman to decide to marry (or allow herself to be married to) a rich man who already has several wives rather than a poor man who doesn’t have any. In such societies, though, one wonders how much agency women really have in the matter… ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/206 "2022-06-09T18:19:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, many people have open “poly” relationships and living arrangements, where all involved are adults who can make their own choices. I see no issue with that, and in fact, afaik it isnt illegal in the USA. There are still several states where cohabitation is illegal - Michigan and Mississippi: > **[Cohabitation in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohabitation_in_the_United_States)** > > Cohabitation in the United States is loosely defined as two or more people, in an intimate relationship, who live together and share a common domestic life but are neither joined by marriage nor a civil union. > In most parts of the United States, there is no legal registration or definition of cohabitation, so demographers have developed various methods of identifying cohabitation and measuring its prevalence. The Census Bureau currently describes an "unmarried partner" as a "person age 15 years... No clue whether either state enforces the law - I suspect not. I remember when I was in college, hearing about my state having such a law - and that it could in theory be used to ban regular roommate setups where nothing else was going on. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/207 "2022-06-10T00:49:38Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It seems odd that the children have no agency about whom they spend time with in the afterlife. I see a lot of unhappiness in Mormon “heaven”. I agree with your point as stated. But I’ll point out that the parents have no agency either; whatever happens to spring from their loins is theirs forever - like 'em or not. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/208 "2022-06-10T01:48:37Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > I remember reading somewhere that in certain societal contexts … where marriage is essentially a trade where the man offers finance and security and the woman offers sex, servitude and fertility, . So basically my marriage…on Opposite World. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/209 "2022-06-10T02:32:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So basically my marriage…on Opposite World. By “opposite”, do you mean that you offer your wife sex, servitude and fertility in exchange for her providing finance and security, or just that you aren’t getting the former and she isn’t getting the latter? 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/210 "2022-06-10T02:36:13Z")
Good point. It just sounds like a miserable place to be. I mean, i actually like my family. But i know an awful lot of people who don’t. That’s a very common situation. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/211 "2022-06-10T02:49:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > So basically my marriage…on Opposite World. > > By “opposite”, do you mean that you offer your wife sex, servitude and fertility in exchange for her providing finance and security, or just that you aren’t getting the former and she isn’t getting the latter? 🤣 Meh…six of one…half dozen of the other… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/212 "2022-06-10T10:41:16Z")
You have a whole planet on which to get away from them, though, right? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/213 "2022-06-10T11:33:06Z")
I dunno, images I’ve seen of those planets are pretty small, like something from the little prince. 😃 The idea of requiring all men to have multiple wives to be in good shape with God and the universe is pretty weird. The natural sex ratio is biased slightly towards men. That just guarantees that a bunch of men are left over. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/214 "2022-06-10T11:41:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I dunno, images I’ve seen of those planets are pretty small, like something from the little prince. Aah, I’ve never seen a picture. Also, I’ve always conflated the LDS beliefs with the Jehovah’s Witnesses “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth” material (since they’re the two big door-to-door proselytizers here), so once I learned about that aspect of their theology, that’s how I pictured their afterlife planets. As opposed to [Dwarf Terrace-9](https://rickandmorty.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarf_Terrace-9) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/215 "2022-06-10T11:44:56Z")
Those images may not have been intended to be real. 😃 It’s a very interesting theology. You (good, Mormon, polygamous man) get to be Jesus on your own planet, if I’m not mistaken. This despite Jesus having never taken a wife. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/216 "2022-06-10T13:07:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Those images may not have been intended to be real. 😃 It’s a very interesting theology. You (good, Mormon, polygamous man) get to be Jesus on your own planet, if I’m not mistaken. This despite Jesus having never taken a wife. Actually, it get even more bizarre than that. Brigham Young revealed the doctrine that actually Adam was God and that Jesus was actually married. That doctrine has been disavowed. However, even without the Adam - God aspect, early leaders were clear that it required a man to be a polygamist to become a god in the next life. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > It seems odd that the children have no agency about whom they spend time with in the afterlife. I see a lot of unhappiness in Mormon “heaven”. My mother never understood why our kids were less than excited to spend an eternity with our narcissistic, abusive father. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > The woman was crushed. What happened to God’s plan for her life? Was she this UNIMPORTANT? Did God not CARE who she married? The leader tried to backtrack by talking about how God revealing his will through her, but the damage had been done. > > When you’ve been raised like this, do you really have agency? Are you really giving informed consent? The only problem with this story is that it actually mirrors similar things within mainstream Mormonism, so it’s not just what happens in the extreme branches. The mainstream LDS church actively leads children to believe that God personally directs his apostles to call the young adults, both men and women to the “right” mission, just like that group has that prophet reveal who the young women are to marry. It’s exactly the same thing. Kids are indoctrinated to believe the God is personally directing their lives. There isn’t that much difference between the LDS church and these fundamentalist branches. They get their look and feel from the main Mormon church and mimic it. Joseph Smith himself married 14-year-old girls as well as other men’s wives. None of that has been disavowed, only swept under the rug. It’s no wonder that as members start to study things in depth, they often either reject Mormonism or embrace the fundamentalist aspects, including polygamy. The abuses which happen in the Mormon cults reflect the abuses which happened in the LDS history. The early LDS church history is quite bloody. Many doctrines in the cults are directly from the LDS church. Others are modifications of LDS doctrines. The abuse seen in these cults are also seen within members of the LDS church. My father was never a polygamist, yet justified his sexual, mental, physical and emotional abuse of the family from the same doctrine of the father being the patriarch of the family. The LDS church simply failed to provide any effective safeguards for victims of family abuse. This is the problem when cultures are based on arbitrary standards of self government. In the case, if you happen to have a Y, you are good to go, even if you really should be locked up in prison or a mental facility. It’s a horrible way to give power to people. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/217 "2022-06-10T13:08:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Those images may not have been intended to be real. 😃 It’s a very interesting theology. You (good, Mormon, polygamous man) get to be Jesus on your own planet, if I’m not mistaken. This despite Jesus having never taken a wife But how does this work? You’re a great Mormon and take 10 wives and they each give you 10 kids. Those kids grow up, the men marry many women and the women marry into other Mormon families. Then you die. So, you get your own planet and all your wives and kids join you. Great. But don’t all the sons who had their own families get their own planets rather than living on yours? And don’t all the daughters go off to the planets of their husbands? That leaves you and your wives alone, no? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/218 "2022-06-10T19:12:59Z")
Thanks for sharing not just your academic knowledge of the LDS, but also your personal experience with it. LDS history has always fascinated me, in great part because its origin is recent enough for a LOT of evidential analysis. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/219 "2022-06-10T19:37:14Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Thanks for sharing not just your academic knowledge of the LDS, but also your personal experience with it. Former members of groups are not always the best source of unbiased and accurate information about those groups. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011/220 "2022-06-10T19:45:15Z")
> [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > Former members of groups are not always the best source of unbiased and accurate information about those groups. No, but it’s the way to bet. Especially when most of them share consistent stories that make a lot more sense and are more congruent with actual evidence than the official doctrine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polygamy-advocacy/934011.md?page=12)