# Pon farr **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735 "2016-09-12T03:18:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/21 "2016-09-12T19:57:19Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Spock was so emotionally agitated that the other option didn’t occur to him. She wanted a divorce, he didn’t. Not until he realized how conniving she was. He was shocked when she opted for _kun ut kalifee_. Even in a proper state of mind, not going through with the marriage would never have occurred to him. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/22 "2016-09-12T20:00:14Z")
As for the _pon farr_, while it does affect both sexes, the male Vulcan, at least, can activate a _pon-farr_-like condition in a woman. Vorik does this with the half-human half-Klingon B’Elanna Torres. If this goes both ways, then both could be satisfied even if their _pon farr_s do not align. (And, depending on how it works, maybe they would synchronize.) Personally, since it’s clearly an arranged marriage situation, I always assumed that Vulcans were matched up with a mate that would have _pon farr_ at the same time. That would add some logic to the system, without it having to be about some sort of political alliance or anything. Even if it’s technically unnecessary due to the above, I could see the logic in it. Especially if they don’t synchronize, meaning having them at the same time would allow only one forced mating instead of two. Sure, the ritual itself must’ve come from pre-logic Vulcan, but I could see the institutions modified to work. And there being pushed some idea that rejecting the tradition when you don’t have to is illogical. Vulcans aren’t so much purely logical as much as having a value system centered around logic. It’s not above them to rationalize. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/23 "2016-09-12T20:04:04Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > It would have been interesting to learn more about Sarek and Amanda’s courtship and marriage, beyond “it seemed the logical thing to do.” To me, that always translated to: Amanda: “Sarek, sit down… There’s something I need to tell you… I’m… Uh… Well, I don’t know how else to tell you this so I’m just going to come right out and say it: I’m pregnant.” Sarek: “You’re what? You’re pregnant?.. But, but, we used space condoms! We were totally safe! How did this happen? (Sigh) Well… guess we better get married.” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/24 "2016-09-12T20:11:06Z")
Hmmmm … I always thought Spock was something of a test-tube baby… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/25 "2016-09-12T20:18:56Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > To me, that always translated to: > > Amanda: “Sarek, sit down… There’s something I need to tell you… I’m… Uh… Well, I don’t know how else to tell you this so I’m just going to come right out and say it: I’m pregnant.” > > Sarek: “You’re what? You’re pregnant?.. But, but, we used space condoms! We were totally safe! How did this happen? (Sigh) Well… guess we better get married.” I’ve seen this in a fanzine somewhere: “How Sarek and Amanda Came to Be Wed” Sarek: “You’re What?!?” After googling: Apparently this is the opening of Ruth Berman’s “At the time, it seemed the logical thing to do” [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sarek\_(TOS)](http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sarek_(TOS)) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/26 "2016-09-12T20:27:58Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > She wanted a divorce, he didn’t. Not until he realized how conniving she was. > > He was shocked when she opted for _kun ut kalifee_. Even in a proper state of mind, not going through with the marriage would never have occurred to him. I don’t buy that. He may have himself refused to engage in it, but a logical Spock would have noticed the possibility of just having sex with someone else. Exploring the possibilities is an intrinsic part of logical decision making. So he would not have presented it to Kirk as if he was going to die if he didn’t get back to Vulcan. Just like I think a logical Spock would have noticed the possibility of _kun ut kalifee_, even if he thought she was unlikely to engage in it. He’d just assign it a low percentage of happening. And, yes, I know that Spock had no desire for a divorce. My point was just that even T’Pring honored the traditions. She still felt she had to attend. Just like Spock felt he had to deal with his _pon farr_ in the culturally appropriate manner. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just adding to what you said. The point was to show how strong said traditions are, when even the woman who rejected them and picked her own lover would feel the need to stick with them. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/27 "2016-09-12T20:31:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > He may have himself refused to engage in it, but a logical Spock would have noticed the possibility of just having sex with someone else. Exploring the possibilities is an intrinsic part of logical decision making. Fer sure, there were a lot of possibilities he could have explored with Nurse Chapel! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/28 "2016-09-12T20:33:24Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They are frequently illogical. Can’t live with 'em… Pass the beer nuts! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/29 "2016-09-12T20:37:08Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Hmmmm … I always thought Spock was something of a test-tube baby… :dubious: In earlier Trek, that could make sense. But we’re now privy to way too many accidental interspecies pregnancies to presume test tubes are necessary. (It’s hinted at in TNG with Worf and Alexander, but you could argue that she was still half Klingon. But it’s very clear with Voyager and Naomi Wildman.) I’ve always assumed that there was some _pon farr_ where Sarek and Amanda were basically forced together. And then it seemed logical to get married. Whether that was because of a pregnancy or not, I think it still works. ---
**Author:** ![moojja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@moojja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moojja)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/30 "2016-09-12T20:51:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The point was to show how strong said traditions are, when even the woman who rejected them and picked her own lover would feel the need to stick with them. T’Pring didn’t reject tradition by picking her own lover. The ritual of kun ut kalifee requires the Vulcan woman to pick a lover first. Otherwise there’s no one who would fight for her. The non-traditional part was when she picked Kirk instead of Stonn. > [@BigT](#): > > In earlier Trek, that could make sense. But we’re now privy to way too many accidental interspecies pregnancies to presume test tubes are necessary. (It’s hinted at in TNG with Worf and Alexander, but you could argue that she was still half Klingon. But it’s very clear with Voyager and Naomi Wildman.) How is Naomi Wildman an accidental baby? I thought her mother had the procedure done before Voyager was lost, I thought it was a surprise pregnancy only in the sense procedure wasn’t 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/31 "2016-09-12T21:02:03Z")
As an aside, it’s always fun for me when I re-watch something and recognize an actor from something else I just watched. In this case, I realized that Stonn was not only in _Balance of Terror_, but he was also one of the POWs in **The Great Escape**. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/32 "2016-09-12T21:49:05Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > As an aside, it’s always fun for me when I re-watch something and recognize an actor from something else I just watched. In this case, I realized that Stonn was not only in _Balance of Terror_, but he was also one of the POWs in **The Great Escape**. T’Pring was Arlene Martel, who also played Consuelo in the classic Outer Limits episode _Demon With a Glass Hand_. Had a lot of one-episode roles in '60s, '70s, '80s TV. Not always easy to recognize her; she used a few different screen names and could really disappear into a role. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/33 "2016-09-12T22:45:09Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Hmmmm … I always thought Spock was something of a test-tube baby… :dubious: Sarek had [something to say](https://youtu.be/iHg_1Ni6k-c?t=15m15shttp://) on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/34 "2016-09-12T22:55:43Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > It would have been interesting to learn more about Sarek and Amanda’s courtship and marriage, beyond “it seemed the logical thing to do.” At least two novels in the _Star Trek_ extended universe deal with that subject. What made it the “logical thing to do” was that the two of them developed a relationship and were spending a lot of time together, so formalizing it seemed… well… the logical thing to do rather than continue maintaining two separate households and pretending they weren’t such good friends that they wanted to get intimate. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/35 "2016-09-12T22:58:11Z")
One of my favorite moments in the first reboot was when Sarek confided to Spock that he married Amanda because he loved her. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/36 "2016-09-12T22:59:33Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > Sarek had [something to say](https://youtu.be/iHg_1Ni6k-c?t=15m15shttp://) on the subject. I’m not sitting through an entire hour of that to find what you reference. At what point does the Sarek thing come up? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/37 "2016-09-12T23:01:04Z")
I grew up with ST-TOS and even I never though that Vulcans only mated every seven years. From what I read they could “do it” at any time, but when pon farr hits you HAVE to. I figured it was an evolutionary/genetic relic from before the time Vulcans developed their stoic culture. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/38 "2016-09-12T23:07:45Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > One of my favorite moments in the first reboot was when Sarek confided to Spock that he married Amanda because he loved her. Remember “Journey to Babel”? Although he didn’t SAY it, I’m sure that’s what Sarek meant. Amanda: _Logic, logic, I’m sick to **death** of your logic! Do you want to know what I think of your logic?_ Spock(to Sarek): _Emotional, isn’t she?_ Sarek(replying to Spock): _Indeed, she has always been that way._ Spock: _Then why did you marry her?_ Sarek: \* At the time, it seemed the logical thing to do.\* Amanda starts to puff up in anger, then realizes, in as much as it’s possible for a Vulcan to do, she is being teased. She smiles and exchanges that two finger greeting with her husband. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/39 "2016-09-12T23:33:13Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > In a multiverse with warp drives and goatee-having Spocks, Pon-farr is whatever you want it to be. > > I want to see gay Vulcans doing Pon-farr, you heterocentric cis-federationalists. Roddenbery created Surak and T’pau… ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735/40 "2016-09-13T00:32:16Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > T’Pring was Arlene Martel, who also played Consuelo in the classic Outer Limits episode _Demon With a Glass Hand_. Had a lot of one-episode roles in '60s, '70s, '80s TV. Not always easy to recognize her; she used a few different screen names and could really disappear into a role. She was also “Tiger,” the French Resistance fighter on _ **Hogan’s Heroes** _. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pon-farr/765735.md?page=3)