# Poor children don't know how to work. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850 "2011-12-02T16:05:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/21 "2011-12-02T19:11:26Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Secondly, while I agree that the ultimate solution is jobs for the parents, what good exactly does “proposing jobs” by any politician do? Where are these jobs supposed to come from? The Government for the most part does not create jobs, the private sector does. I am not saying that those down don’t need to have a helping hand up, but what exactly are we to do? The govt. can create jobs. There are a lot of jobs out there that need to be done right now, and could be done with cheap credit available, that would benefit the country and the people: repairing bridges, streets, water pipes; improving the four seperate power networks the US have into one to share power; build new wind parks on the coasts and solar plants in the desert; just paint all houses white to reduce AC cost in the summer with reflection… It’s the conservatives who are bent on reducing spending that are blocking them. > [@](#): > > As far as after school study programs, I couldn’t agree more that education is the main key in people getting out of poverty. The problem however, is that the children of quite a number of low income parents are not seeing an emphasis being placed on education from inside their own family. If it doesn’t start at home and isn’t encouraged by those at home I really think that there is nothing the Government can do to help. Kids of higher and upper middle class families do well in school because the parents place a high priority on education and they place an expectation on their children to do well in school. Families in the lower class need to place the same expectation on their children. Once the children know and understand the value of education things will start to change. > > My wife is a teacher and I spend many hours as a volunteer at the school. I am amazed at the difference I see between children (regardless of race) of lower class families vs. upper middle and wealthy families. The difference is in their attitudes toward learning. The difference is in the parents direct involvement in their children’s school life. This is not to say that I don’t see slackers and losers (for lack of a better word) in the upper class kids, nor does it mean that I don’t see individuals from the lower class families that seem to be self motivated and on their way to the top. It is just a general observation. Just because the parents don’t think education is important doesn’t mean it’s impossible. It means that the govt. needs to step in and spend initial money to get the kids motivated and show them that somebody cares. There are enough success stories of one teacher or volunteer at a youth center believing in a kid enough for the kid to believe in himself and pursue their dreams and make something better than a job slave. > [@](#): > > And FWIW, on a personal note I didn’t complete college. I went and dropped out choosing instead to go into the workforce in a technical blue collar job. I did very well while in this job, but certainly would have done better had I completed college. Looking back and thinking about myself and the friends of mine who did go and complete college I saw something that was undeniable. My parents didn’t go to college and while they always encourage me to do well, they didn’t put much emphasis on a college education. I grew up thinking it really wasn’t that important. Looking back I can remember the friends that I had that got degrees and how their parents pushed the idea of college on them. It was expected that they would go and they did. A kid needs direction and sometimes a good shove in the right direction. I still think that the US should overhaul the college system to the dual apprenticeship system Germany has, where for lower blue-collar jobs and crafts, people train 2-3 years as apprentice parallel to visiting a vocational school. And they get paid from the employer during this time instead of racking up thousands of dollars in debt. The employers do this because it’s an investment into the future to have skilled Facharbeiter (craftsmen) available for hire with a minimum of both practical and theoretical knowledge, and because after the first year the apprentices can already do some minor work under supervision. Not everybody needs a college education aimed at academia for a blue collar job; but many blue collar professions need more than 2 weeks to train somebody properly. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/22 "2011-12-02T19:12:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is nothing wrong with a “McDonald’s job” for any kid, rich or poor. The idea is to give the kid (and I would say every kid needs to learn this) the experience that you have to show up, and you have to have the discipline to show up every day. The actual job is less important than the life skills learned with having the responsibility of a job. But again, I think all kids (teenagers) can benefit from that. > > I had a more or less shit job when I was 14. Most of my friends did, too. But it was nice to have spending money and it kept us off the streets during the day. A McDonalds job not to earn pocket money, but as full-time job because you can’t find anything else is what I was referring to, and that is widely regarded as bad. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/23 "2011-12-02T19:17:08Z")
Adding to my previous post, in 1994 Newt called for [AFDC to be scrapped and the money used to build “Boys’ Town”-style orphanages for the children of the poor](http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/us/the-1994-election-issues-momentum-builds-for-cutting-back-welfare-system.html): > [@](#): > > Mr. Gingrich, by contrast, describes such programs not as the strands of a safety net but as the teeth of a trap that lures the poor into self-destructive behavior. > > He would allow states to end assistance to large numbers of A.F.D.C. recipients, whether or not they were willing to join a work program. He would use some of the money to build orphanages or group homes for the children of those families rendered destitute. > > But Mr. Gingrich’s proposal goes beyond the main Federal welfare program. Indeed, some Republicans estimate that over the next five years his proposal could translate into cuts of roughly $40 billion or more in food, housing and income programs, including those that serve the disabled and the indigent elderly. And as he describes his “idea”, see if you can hear the GOP dog-whistle: [QUOTE=Newt Gingrich] “Most of these schools ought to get rid of the unionized janitors, have one master janitor and pay local students to take care of the school. The kids would actually do work, they would have cash, they would have pride in the schools, they’d begin the process of rising.” [/quote] Ah, unions…any doubt this is a cost-cutting measure, rather than a real effort to help the poor? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/24 "2011-12-02T19:22:32Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > That isn’t exactly what I said. To clarify, I conceded that we as a society need to help those less fortunate. However it is my opinion that no matter how much we do to help change will not come unless change also comes from inside as well. We can do everything in our power to foster education BUT until the children receive support and encouragement from their family and communities as a whole I believe that the help we give won’t be enough to overcome the status quo. > > I disagree and think that by pointing out the failures in the social network of those needing help is quite helpful. Would you disagree that a foundation set down by the families of children is necessary for them to succeed in life? Would you agree that a child would be more successful in school if they had the support of their parents concerning their education? > > What is so terrible about saying to the lower class parents, “we would like to help you and your children build better lives but in order to do so WE NEED YOUR HELP AS WELL. Could you please become more involved in your child’s education. Contact their teachers and see what you can do to assist your child. Take the initiative and make sure that your child is doing their assignments and turning them in. Talk to your kids about how important an education is and explain to them that college can be and should be an option. Tell them that the way out of the situation that they are in is education. Make sure that they know that by doing the best they can and trying harder each day they can succeed in life.” My God, the horror in those words. > > Once again, I agree that we need to help those in need. But we can’t help those who aren’t willing to help themselves. And you are correct that we can’t force families to place a higher priority on education. But if they don’t want to, isn’t that the same as someone denying help in the first place? If they don’t want to contribute to changing their circumstances I fail to see what we can possibly do to help them. The old saying is “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”. Because children aren’t set in their ways. And because parents aren’t the only influence (thankfully) in a child’s life. I know how sacrosanct the rights of parents over the welfare of the children are in the US, but still - what you are saying is contrary to both established pedagogic and psychology knowledge about children, and to studies done on projects aimed specifically to help lower-class children. Those studies show e.g. that if you take a child at age 3 and pay (the state) to have it attend not only Kindergarden, but additional Early Childhood intervention based on the needs of the individual child (Addtional speech therapy, music lessons, dance/gymnastic/movement lessons …) - then it costs a few thousands Euros at this stage, but the children have a much higher success rate later on at completing High School plus learning a profession and becoming real employed (permanenently) than the children from the same ghetto who didn’t get them, saving hundreds of thousands of Euros in welfare later on. Even outside school, there are grandparents and aunts. Then there are peers, which starting with High School have a much higher influence than parents anyway. And any adult who’s regularly in the kids life, whether it’s a youth pastor, teacher, club volunteer … who can connect to the child, and genuinly cares, can turn a kid around. A lot of people already are volunteering their time, all the state needs is a place (youth club, school after hours) some money for materials and general acknowledgment that This Is A Good Thing We Will Keep Doing It even after the next election, and won’t cut it first thing when spending cuts are discussed. Because that also plays a role: children see from their parents struggle (they aren’t dumb) that poor people are criticized and dumped on and blamed as being lazy, no matter what they do, and that politicans cut their stuff first. In rich neighborhoods, parks aren’t given up as quickly as a baseball court in a poor area. They rightfully feel that nobody cares about them. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/25 "2011-12-02T19:23:00Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > A McDonalds job not to earn pocket money, but as full-time job because you can’t find anything else is what I was referring to, and that is widely regarded as bad. Well, we found something that we agree on. Yes, a McDonalds job is generally bad. I guess the managers can make a decent living, but working the register at McDonalds isn’t a career. No shame in it, would rather work there than not at all, but certainly just a fill the time job until a real one comes along. Now that we agree on something, how do we fix it? I still contend that the only way to fix the unemployment/underemployment in this country is through the expansion of private sector jobs. They might be in manufacturing, sales, medical or whatever but until the private sector starts to expand and needs more people this won’t get any better. The best way to do that is for the Government to place as little restrictions on companies as possible. You have to make hiring people and expanding your business a smart thing to do from a financial standpoint or they wont do it. Companies are in business to make money for either their owners or the shareholders. If hiring new employees causes a net decline to the bottom line there is no reason to do so. Don’t saddle small business with regulations that they can’t afford, let them grow. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/26 "2011-12-02T19:30:04Z")
Newt is correct, the phrasing of it makes it ripe to be taken out of context to seem like he is blaming the poor children. When you look unempoloyment rates in this country the rate for black teenagers was historically lower than for white teenagers. However, with the passing of minimum wage laws this started to reverse. Now the unemployment rates of black teenage are significantly higher than for white teenagers. This despite the fact that black teenagers are more likely to be poor and have more need to work. Studies have shown that late entry into the labor force significantly effects lifetime earnings. The reason for this is that minimum wage laws price labor higher than the market clearing price for black teenage labor which is low because of poor schooling, higher rates of family dysfunction, lower rates of human capital. On the job training is crucial for people from poor neighborhoods because of the general poor quality of education in those areas. Outlawing jobs for poor kids is removing the lowest rung of the ladder out of poverty. Restricting this program to teenagers seeks to go sidestep the union opposition. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/27 "2011-12-02T19:30:56Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > [Quote=Originally Posted by Newt Gingrich] > > “Most of these schools ought to get rid of the unionized janitors, have one master janitor and pay local students to take care of the school. The kids would actually do work, they would have cash, they would have pride in the schools, they’d begin the process of rising.” Ah, unions…any doubt this is a cost-cutting measure, rather than a real effort to help the poor? [/QUOTE] There is a grain of truth in that pile of horseshit: japanese students are used from primary school onwards to clean their classrooms themselves, with broom and wet cloth. It’s often remarked on by outsiders that there is no graffiti or other petty destruction at japanese schools.\* If a decent director of one particular school wanted to make the children feel closer to the school, and among other measures, like letting the children paint their own classroom\*\*, then making the children clean the school themselves would be a good idea. It would also teach responsibility (you make a mess - you clean it up; you see a mess, even though you didn’t cause it, you clean it up because you live here); and [appreciation of people doing lower jobs.](http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-jobs-everyone-in-world-should-have-at-some-point/) But coming from a tainted source of a guy who mistreats people and lies about the poor to score points, no suggestion is sensible. - Though I wonder how much the strong japanese peer pressure at group conformity also plays a role in this - graffiti and destruction are also ways at asserting individuality and showing your hate of the school. If group conformity forbids feelings of hate or expression of individuality, then they don’t get expressed. \*\* Not white paint to save costs, but with a picture - we did that as art project in 10th grade. Only on wallpaper so it wasn’t permanent, to allow the next year’s class to do a different one, though. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/28 "2011-12-02T19:37:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Newt is correct, the phrasing of it makes it ripe to be taken out of context to seem like he is blaming the poor children. When you look unempoloyment rates in this country the rate for black teenagers was historically lower than for white teenagers. However, with the passing of minimum wage laws this started to reverse. Now the unemployment rates of black teenage are significantly higher than for white teenagers. This despite the fact that black teenagers are more likely to be poor and have more need to work. Studies have shown that late entry into the labor force significantly effects lifetime earnings. The reason for this is that minimum wage laws price labor higher than the market clearing price for black teenage labor which is low because of poor schooling, higher rates of family dysfunction, lower rates of human capital. On the job training is crucial for people from poor neighborhoods because of the general poor quality of education in those areas. Outlawing jobs for poor kids is removing the lowest rung of the ladder out of poverty. Restricting this program to teenagers seeks to go sidestep the union opposition. Well, _somebody_ heard that dog whistle loud and clear. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/29 "2011-12-02T19:41:02Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Well, _somebody_ heard that dog whistle loud and clear. **puddleglum** welcome to the insane world of the liberal mind. If you have a belief and agree with something a Conservative says you are “drinking the Kool-Aid”, however if they believe in something best not say anything because then you will be accused of being closed minded and not respecting them. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/30 "2011-12-02T19:42:23Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Now that we agree on something, how do we fix it? I still contend that the only way to fix the unemployment/underemployment in this country is through the expansion of private sector jobs. They might be in manufacturing, sales, medical or whatever but until the private sector starts to expand and needs more people this won’t get any better. The best way to do that is for the Government to place as little restrictions on companies as possible. You have to make hiring people and expanding your business a smart thing to do from a financial standpoint or they wont do it. Companies are in business to make money for either their owners or the shareholders. If hiring new employees causes a net decline to the bottom line there is no reason to do so. Don’t saddle small business with regulations that they can’t afford, let them grow. Wrong, we need more Govt. As I already said in my earlier post, Govt. can create a lot of jobs by spending money on infrastructure jobs (which also benefit the country mid- and long-term). These jobs will be carried out either directly by small businesses or by training people first to do them and then hiring them. However, small business have a hard time not primarliy because of govt. regs., but because of competition from big corps., where govt. regulations have been relaxed. All the troubles that the banks cause hits not only private Joes, but also small businesses. So if govt. introduced stricter regs. against corporations, with the intention of levelling the playing field a bit again, then small business could create some jobs. But as long as companies can locate thousands of jobs to China, get a special deal from the city when opening a new plant, close it down again after 1 year and keep all the benefits from the special deal although the jobs are now destroyed again … so long jobs won’t be created. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/31 "2011-12-02T19:48:45Z")
If Newt’s proposition was to make all school children clean their schools as part of the curriculum, that would be one thing. His proposal is to fire most of the janitors and have the poor children clean the schools for very little money. His reasoning is that’ll teach poor kids what it means to work since they would have no clue otherwise. Because all they know is crime. I am amazed at what some people think it is like to be poor. I can’t even say these ideas came from TV. I mean, along with NYPD Blue there was Good Times and Roseanne. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/32 "2011-12-02T20:24:09Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > **puddleglum** welcome to the insane world of the liberal mind. If you have a belief and agree with something a Conservative says you are “drinking the Kool-Aid”, however if they believe in something best not say anything because then you will be accused of being closed minded and not respecting them. :smack: In her defense the staus quo is working out so well for black teenagers that any proposal to change it must be hidden call out to racists. Of course if it was a dog whistle and only racists can hear it, what does it say about BiGirl that she heard it? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/33 "2011-12-02T20:32:45Z")
Newt said “poor,” you heard “black.” Need the whistle be a little bit higher in pitch or something? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/34 "2011-12-02T20:54:08Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > A McDonalds job not to earn pocket money, but as full-time job because you can’t find anything else is what I was referring to, and that is widely regarded as bad. But we’re talking about teenagers. They’re supposed to get the crap jobs because they typically have no or few skills. You originally complained that a McDonald’s job was not good training for “real” jobs, but I contend that it’s just fine for someone at that stage in life. It’s not that they hope to be the world’s best burger flipper when they grow up. It’s that you start at the bottom rung and work your way up. It also teaches them that this isn’t what they want to be doing when they’re 35 (or even 25). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/35 "2011-12-02T21:02:42Z")
Its a shrewd tactic. There a simply oodles of Americans who are, at least for the moment, more or less middling class. But they are on the very brink, and they know it, or they aren’t, but are afraid they might be. All you gotta do is tell them what they are likely to believe, that they are deserving, they are the good people. But their well-being is threatened by all those lazy no-accounts sucking on the tax teat. Austerity, that’s what this country needs! Its an appealing message for the fearful. And there are few notions easier to sell than “you are more deserving than the other guy”. I wish I could say it won’t work. But to one degree or another, its bound to. And if he can subtly blend in a little racism without actually saying it? So much the better. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/36 "2011-12-02T21:16:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But we’re talking about teenagers. They’re supposed to get the crap jobs because they typically have no or few skills. You originally complained that a McDonald’s job was not good training for “real” jobs, but I contend that it’s just fine for someone at that stage in life. It’s not that they hope to be the world’s best burger flipper when they grow up. It’s that you start at the bottom rung and work your way up. It also teaches them that this isn’t what they want to be doing when they’re 35 (or even 25). First, the younger teens are when you shove them out into the adult workplace, the less education they are going to get. And not only formal education - the whole “broadening your mind that there other issues besides short-time monetary gain” that goes on in higher schools and universities, to produce people able to look and plan beyond one fiscal quarter, people with a vision, people who care about art and nature and future. If a 15-year old starts working full-time instead of going to school to learn about the Illiad, he’ll think only of things to buy with his money, and slack the evenings off on the couch, or ride around on the motorbike he bought with the money. He’ll use interest in pursuing further education. So if you want people to see that education is important, forcing them into shitty jobs is the wrong path for that. And teens need to learn how to think in school to be able to continue education. There’s an age beyond which it’s incredibly hard (or impossible) to learn critical thinking if you haven’t learned it by then. So keeping children in school is important. A full-time job at the age when teens need a lot of sleep is contraproductive to furthering education. (That’s why all those extra-curricalur actvities, the parties to attend to be popular, and the jobs to earn pocket money plus hours-long homework are seriously bad for US teens - they lead to lack of sleep, which affects the mind, the mood, and development). There’s also the problem that letting teens slave at MacDonalds doesn’t teach them how to do better. Sure, they don’t want to do that job for life. What’s the alternative path they can take if their parents are poor? Go to college? Not in the US where it’s expensive. Learn a real job as apprentice? Not in the US which doesn’t offer that choice. What’s left instead? See also > [@](#): > > But here’s the thing: Those Baby Boomers who started this “you don’t want to flip burgers” bullshit did flip burgers. Or roof houses, or mine coal, or wax porn stars’ assholes. And that wasn’t something to be ashamed of back then – that was the era before you needed a bachelor’s degree to get a job waiting tables (but more on that in a moment). But at some point between my grandfather’s time and now, getting your hands dirty became something to be ashamed of. My generation perpetuated that. We made it socially unacceptable to: > > A) Do any job that requires sweat and/or a uniform. > > B) Work 70-hour weeks to get ahead. > > So if you don’t do either of those things, what’s left? Getting an education and waiting for a good job in your field. But now, when we catch you doing that, we mock you and tell you to go flip burgers. And that’s bullshit. We told you your whole lives that those jobs were for idiots and failures. You think you’re too good for those jobs because that’s what we’ve been fucking telling you since birth. > > Read more: 5 Ways We Ruined the Occupy Wall Street Generation | [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) [5 Ways We Ruined the Occupy Wall Street Generation | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/#ixzz1fPiSZjxb) And > [@](#): > > Last month, I overheard a conversation between a steakhouse waiter and an older couple he was serving. He knew the couple, but not intimately. They politely asked how his classes were coming along, and he said that he had in fact graduated with a degree in architecture. For the next several minutes, the old couple awkwardly tried to reassure him that something would come along while he attempted to justify to them why he was serving steaks for a living. > > It was painfully clear that he felt like a failure, and that he dreaded having this conversation with every older member of his family he encountered. Having to put a positive spin on his own life, trying to reassure them that he wasn’t a failure, or lazy, or hadn’t dropped out of society due to a drug problem. Yes, I did get my degree. No, they’re not hiring. > > Read more: 5 Ways We Ruined the Occupy Wall Street Generation | [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) [5 Ways We Ruined the Occupy Wall Street Generation | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/#ixzz1fPkUAci9) ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/37 "2011-12-02T21:20:25Z")
Another aspect: It’s useless to know how to work 8 hrs straight and be diligent and all that … if there are 10 or 50 applicants for every job opening. Even for McDonalds. Because that’s what all those “lets bash the lazy poor people” asshole conservatives are not telling: it’s not laziness that prevents people from getting a job, it’s lack of jobs. Which, again, is largely the fault of the Conservatives in govt. preventing programs that created jobs in the last depression (the New Deal under FDR). And before, the recession that killed jobs being caused by deregulation of private industry by conservatives. Who now bash again the poor instead of the rich. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/38 "2011-12-02T21:38:37Z")
Who said they should work full time during the school year? Full time in the summer, and part time during the school year. This is not rocket surgery. It is the way of the world. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/39 "2011-12-02T22:53:53Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Wrong, we need more Govt. As I already said in my earlier post, Govt. can create a lot of jobs by spending money on infrastructure jobs (which also benefit the country mid- and long-term). These jobs will be carried out either directly by small businesses or by training people first to do them and then hiring them. > > However, small business have a hard time not primarliy because of govt. regs., but because of competition from big corps., where govt. regulations have been relaxed. All the troubles that the banks cause hits not only private Joes, but also small businesses. > > So if govt. introduced stricter regs. against corporations, with the intention of levelling the playing field a bit again, then small business could create some jobs. But as long as companies can locate thousands of jobs to China, get a special deal from the city when opening a new plant, close it down again after 1 year and keep all the benefits from the special deal although the jobs are now destroyed again … so long jobs won’t be created. Well, why I appreciate your view I can see that chances are we aren’t every going to see eye to eye on this. In my view, the more Government gets involved the more problems it causes. As far as jobs (specifically manufacturing jobs) going overseas I for the most part put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the American consumer. See, the American consumer is a strange creature. He/she insist on paying the least amount for a product, why do you think WalMart has been so successful? But on the other hand the same people that demand lower prices for the items they purchase demand higher wages for the worker. It is a paradox. If you have workers making high salaries (and I am in no way saying they shouldn’t, just explaining something I see) then the prices of the goods they produce are going to go up in order to cover the cost of that labor. Problem is, if the average consumer isn’t willing to purchase more expensive items even though they are made in the USA by Americans then the company that makes them can no longer, and then the worker loses his/her job. I had this discussion in another thread, the one about Japanese products, and used the example of my mother. My mother is a die hard union person, having worked in a union job until she retired. She is very vocal about her desire to have unions in just about every single workplace, because among other things union employees make more money than non-union employees. I have no problem with that at all, but when I went shopping recently with her she was purchasing a new item (a toaster I think it was). She looked at the offerings, 10 or more different models and she gravitated directly to the least expensive one (Mom has never cared about style, features and the like. She almost always buys based on price). Feeling like making a point I showed her that the model she choose was made in China. I went through everyone of the offerings and found one made in the USA. I don’t know if it was union, but certainly made in the US. It was almost $13 more than the one she choose. Even though I pointed out that it was made in the USA, maybe by unions and the one she picked was made in China I couldn’t change her mind. She thought about it, but ultimately choose price over belief. I mention this because I feel that this is repeated thousands of times a day throughout our country. You cannot have high paying jobs and then choose to purchase foreign items because they are cheaper. The only things that happen are the USA companies end up not being able to compete. In the end they move their manufacturing arms out in order to compete with the lower priced imports. It might be moral to stand by your guns, hire Americans and a good wage, but it is not sustainable if most won’t buy your product because you can’t sell it for a price they are willing to pay. I do realize that this is off the OP, but you brought jobs leaving overseas, so I thought I would address it. I don’t believe foreigners are doing jobs Americans don’t want to do, but I do think they are willing to do it at a price that Americans can’t do it for. And we have to make a choice in this country. Buy American and pay more or watch our jobs keep going overseas to save a dollar. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850/40 "2011-12-02T23:06:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, “really poor” kids (which is what he said) could be, by definition, in families on welfare. What he’s saying (I think) is that they don’t have role models who work regular jobs at regular hours. It’s probably arguably true, but it’s a pretty stupid thing to say without a lot more context than he gave it (or that is accessible on that audio clip). I wonder if anybody has ever pointed out to him that a majority of retail and waitstaffing positions actually may have a full 30+ hours, but the specific days and hours worked rotate as the needs of the employer dictate … my friend Lisa never has the same days off each week and shifts around between opening and overnights pretty much randomly. [she works at Walmart, it is ope 7/24] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poor-children-dont-know-how-to-work/604850.md?page=3)