# Poorly Documented but Widely Accepted History? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983 "2006-04-02T22:03:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/1 "2006-04-02T22:03:27Z")
Inspired by [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=365502) thread where **Northern Piper** floored me with the post that Hannibal’s crossing may be documented by only _one_ source. Does anyone know of other examples of widely accepted history that is extraordinarily poorly documented? Any literature that examines this issue? ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/2 "2006-04-02T22:07:18Z")
> [@Operation Ripper](#): > > is are :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/3 "2006-04-02T22:32:05Z")
Isn’t the entire [Masada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada) episode only known through the writings of [Josephus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus)? **Chronos** had another good example of the destruction of Pompei only known through the writings of [Pliny the Younger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger). I think pretty much all of early Roman history is only known (apart from archeology) from [Livy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livy), who was himself writing many hundreds of years after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/4 "2006-04-02T22:47:15Z")
I’m 99% that’s untrue in the first place. Besides casual references (which abound, as Hannibal was the bogeyman of the Romans for a long time), there ought to be references in Polybius and Plutarch as well. Unless you mean a narrative account of the crossing rather than the fact that it happened. In that case, I’d need some more time to let you know. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/5 "2006-04-02T22:59:40Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolon](#): > > Unless you mean a narrative account of the crossing rather than the fact that it happened. Just the facts ma’am. Seriously though, if I understand your meaning, contemporaneous accounts of ancient events by people who were literally there I would imagine are extraordinarily, extraordinarily rare. ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/6 "2006-04-02T23:17:05Z")
One related datum: our knowledge of Tacitus’ History rests entirely on two medieval manuscripts of the text. Worse yet, each manuscript contains about half of the work, and they don’t overlap… (Here’s a reference: [http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/tacitus/](http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/tacitus/)) ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/7 "2006-04-02T23:22:49Z")
I think the biggest one is the Jews exodus to Egypt. It exists as an important book in the Bible (Exodus) and there is no outside evidence to support it despite many attempts to find any at all. ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/8 "2006-04-02T23:28:43Z")
Here’s another example: Socrates. (See [http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/socr.htm](http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/socr.htm)) Almost everything we think we know about him comes from Plato and Xenophon, together with references in Aristotle. Other than that, I don’t think there are any further primary sources. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/9 "2006-04-02T23:29:26Z")
In the context written, & to echo\*\* Grimpen\*\*, the famous Greek writers are often used by Christian apologists to demonstrate how much “evidence” for Jesus actually survives. From one such site ([very biased](http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/resurrection-proofs-faq.htm) and never before or in another context offered on the SDGQ): - Plato wrote between 427-347 B.C., with our earliest copies of his works dating from the 900s (1200 year span), of which 7 copies have survived. Aristotle wrote between 384-322 B.C., and his earliest works are dated from the 1100s (1400 year span), with 49 surviving copies. Thucydides wrote around 460-400 B.C.; our copies of his works are from the 900s (1300 year span), with 8 copies in existence. \* But the example they, the Apologists, use the most by far is Socrates, whose sole contemporaneous if post-mortem account is in the writings of Plato - which depicts his philosophy and some of his life – and as noted above the earliest extant accounts have a long lag time. A Christian Apologist will often say there is Xtimes more historical evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for Socrates (& I think that is fair & GQ as long as they don’t get too carried away with X). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/10 "2006-04-02T23:30:24Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolon](#): > > I’m 99% that’s untrue in the first place. Besides casual references (which abound, as Hannibal was the bogeyman of the Romans for a long time), there ought to be references in Polybius and Plutarch as well. > > Unless you mean a narrative account of the crossing rather than the fact that it happened. In that case, I’d need some more time to let you know. The version I heard was that there is only one primary account for the crossing of the Alps with the elephants, and that all other accounts are derivative of that. It may have been Polybius, since he wrote shortly after the Punic Wars, and was closely associated with Scipio. Plutarch wrote more than three centuries afterwards - would he have been using original sources, or repeating what he found in earlier authors? My impression has always been that he was more of a synthesiser/secondary source, carrying out his theory of parallel lives, than a primary authority? However, if I’m wrong on any of this, I’d certainly like to be corrected. I don’t want to be contributing to the spread of ignorance. And of course, with regard to my original comment in the other thread, there is the difficult problem of the relationship between the authors of the Gospels, particularly the three synoptic ones. However, they puport to be four separate accounts, by four separate authors representing different witness groups, rather than one clearly predominant and the others clearly derivative. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/11 "2006-04-02T23:34:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I think the biggest one is the Jews exodus to Egypt. It exists as an important book in the Bible (Exodus) and there is no outside evidence to support it despite many attempts to find any at all. But is that widely accepted as History any more than any other story in the Bible? Is it taught in history classes about Egypt of the the Jews? The existence of Jesus Christ is widely accepted, and calling it “poorly docuemented” would be pretty generous. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/12 "2006-04-02T23:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Any literature that examines this issue? I recently read _Misquoting Jesus_ by Bart Ehrman. He traces down the sources of biblical texts to the oldest existing copies in an attempt to determine where various transcription and translation errors arose. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/13 "2006-04-03T00:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Chronos had another good example of the destruction of Pompei only known through the writings of Pliny the Younger. I’m flattered, but that point was actually due to **Grimpen** , not myself. As to the Hannibal question, surely, if he did cross the Alps with elephants, some of the beasts would have died en route? Has anyone ever found any elephant remains in the Alps, or south of them in Italy? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/14 "2006-04-03T00:26:52Z")
The siege and fall of Troy? Of course, I doubt that many think it happened as described in the _Iliad_. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/15 "2006-04-03T00:29:56Z")
Isn’t the story of Marco Polo questionable? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/16 "2006-04-03T00:32:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As to the Hannibal question, surely, if he did cross the Alps with elephants, some of the beasts would have died en route? Has anyone ever found any elephant remains in the Alps, or south of them in Italy? There are a few problems with this. First, we don’t know which pass he used. Second, he didn’t bring THAT many with him. Livy doesn’t tell us how many he took, except that only 7 were left when he got to Italy, and Polybius says he took 37. I wouldn’t want to go looking for the remains of only 30 elephants in all the Alps. Besides, there’s no doubt among historians that the event happened, as a whole, as described. The details are always in doubt, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/17 "2006-04-03T00:35:04Z")
And much of our information about Genghis Khan was from texts written long after his death. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Secret\_History\_of\_the\_Mongols](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_History_of_the_Mongols) ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/18 "2006-04-03T00:35:18Z")
Basically, I’m not sure what people are trying to argue here. Are we discussing scanty manuscript traditions (like Tacitus)? Are we talking about events which have only been referenced once? Or only have one complete narrative account? Are we discussing whether these events never happened? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/19 "2006-04-03T01:04:15Z")
> [@Grimpen](#): > > Here’s another example: Socrates. > (See [Socrates](http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/socr.htm)) > > Almost everything we think we know about him comes from Plato and Xenophon, together with references in Aristotle. Other than that, I don’t think there are any further primary sources. Socrates appears as a character in Aristophanes’ play, _The Clouds_. The sketch of Socrates here does not match Plato at all - it’s widely accepted as a caricature, but a recognizable one. It’s sort of like a modern movie using a caricature of Einstein to represent the typical absent-minded professor - not at all accurate, but understandable by the audience. In a way, this portrayal of Socrates by Aristophanes is a more reliable indicator that Socrates existed than Plato’s writings. The highly philosophical musings of someone like Plato were probably not well-known to the general public of Athens, and if he had created a fictional character to represent his thoughts, that character may not have been generally known. But if a highly successful playwright satirizes an individual as part of a popular comedy, that’s a good indication that the individual actually existed. Aristophanes and Socrates were contemporaries, and in the _Symposium_, Socrates and Aristophanes are both portrayed as guests. In _Apologia_, Socrates refers to the attack on him in _The Clouds_. See this course syllabus from the University of Saskatchewan for more info: [Aristophanes’ _Clouds_](http://duke.usask.ca/~porterj/CourseNotes/CloudsNotes.html#soc) ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983/20 "2006-04-03T01:07:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But is that widely accepted as History any more than any other story in the Bible? Is it taught in history classes about Egypt of the the Jews? The existence of Jesus Christ is widely accepted, and calling it “poorly documented” would be pretty generous. There are Roman references to someone like Jesus being executed. That is only one person and his significance in history took hold much later. The exodus involved a whole group of people relocating to a foreign land. One would think that such a large event would be recorded outside of a single book in the Bible. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poorly-documented-but-widely-accepted-history/350983.md?page=2)