# Pop bands with real musical genius **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 4, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053 "2007-09-04T22:20:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/21 "2007-09-04T23:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Then I would say that Belle and Sebastian, Mangetic Fields, Neutral Milk Hotel, and The New Pornogrophers are all relativly new pop bands that have fantastic composers. If you want to count Radiohead, they do amazing things compositionally, though they are signifigantly less poppy. Same with Modest Mouse. The thing here is, that I would consider Belle and Sebastian to have much more “pop” talent than either Neutral Milk Hotel or The New Pornographers. I have not heard a band that could catch a tune like Belle and Sebastian in years. I am completely ignorant of Magnetic Fields though that won’t last for long thanks to you. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/22 "2007-09-04T23:48:26Z")
[QUOTE=woodstockbirdybird] Without The Beatles, basically no one on your list would have made the music necessary for them to be included …Lou Reed, despite what he said in some interviews, was a huge Beatles fan during the VU’s existence. [/QUOTE] Being a fan doesn’t make that music essential. Without firmer evidence of a direct influence, your statement is pretty much impossible to argue against, but that doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/23 "2007-09-05T00:09:47Z")
Eeek. I almost shudder to pop (ha!) my head up in a thread with the likes of the afficianados on this board, but if you can stand a contribution from someone with less than sophisticated or learned taste, I just happened to be singing the praises of Oingo Boingo to someone mere hours ago. Sweet jeebus, the talent embodied by Danny Elfman (that goes so far beyond that band, though I think that in itsef could stand alone, IMHO)and company is truly an example of true musical craftsmanship. I’m not sure I know the terminology; the arrangements, the harmonies, the technical skill (?) Even I can see the fierce talent behind what is ususally perceived as a faddish 80’s group. I’d also offer Queen as a band that truly had some incredible, genuine talent that surpassed most of the other popular bands in their time. I am now feeling out of my element and shall slink off to look at kitten threads :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/24 "2007-09-05T00:13:40Z")
[QUOTE=Christopher] The thing here is, that I would consider Belle and Sebastian to have much more “pop” talent than either Neutral Milk Hotel or The New Pornographers. I have not heard a band that could catch a tune like Belle and Sebastian in years. I am completely ignorant of Magnetic Fields though that won’t last for long thanks to you. [/QUOTE] Yeah, if Jeff Mangum was working in any specific idiom when he made the two Neutral Milk Hotel records, it was that of pyschedelic folk in the tradition of Syd Barrett, Kevin Coyne, Etc. moreso than “pop.” Not that those two NMH records aren’t great, but I don’t think of them when it’s time to discuss pop music. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/25 "2007-09-05T00:17:36Z")
[QUOTE=WOOKINPANUB] Eeek. I almost shudder to pop (ha!) my head up in a thread with the likes of the afficianados on this board, but if you can stand a contribution from someone with less than sophisticated or learned taste, I just happened to be singing the praises of Oingo Boingo to someone mere hours ago. Sweet jeebus, the talent embodied by Danny Elfman (that goes so far beyond that band, though I think that in itsef could stand alone, IMHO)and company is truly an example of true musical craftsmanship. I’m not sure I know the terminology; the arrangements, the harmonies, the technical skill (?) Even I can see the fierce talent behind what is ususally perceived as a faddish 80’s group. I’d also offer Queen as a band that truly had some incredible, genuine talent that surpassed most of the other popular bands in their time. I am now feeling out of my element and shall slink off to look at kitten threads :smack: [/QUOTE] As one of the aficionados, I wholly agree with both. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/26 "2007-09-05T00:31:19Z")
This is all good. Most of these are bands I haven’t listened to (or, in many cases, haven’t even heard of). I was an Oingo Boingo fan back in the day, and the Smiths are up there with the Cure as my favorite band of all time (I’ve never decided which I like better). I’m definitely going to bust out my I-Tunes and do some serious music sampling. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/27 "2007-09-05T00:31:45Z")
Yes, I’d definitely rank Queen up there with the best of them. All nearly virtuosi on their instruments (including Freddie’s voice), wonderful songwriters, awe-inspiring live performers, and they could play anything from hard rock to vaudeville to rockabilly to operatic ballads, and all points in between. I’ve liked Queen ever since I was a pre-teen, but only now I am really learning to appreciate their album tracks and realizing they are one of the finest bands of all time, regardless of genre. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/28 "2007-09-05T00:46:47Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Being a fan doesn’t make that music essential. Without firmer evidence of a direct influence, your statement is pretty much impossible to argue against, but that doesn’t make it true. [/QUOTE] Well, I don’t have the article with me - it may have been a Lester Bangs piece - but I do recall Lou saying he had been studying George Harrison’s guitar line for “Strawberry Fields Forever” and trying to figure it out, as well as stating how much he enjoyed the Beatles’s recent albums (this being around '67). Anyway, if you can’t see the influence The Beatles have had on damn near everyone who followed, or understand how it was essential to rock/pop as we’ve known it for the past 40 years, I guess no amount of evidence is going to persuade you. That doesn’t mean you personally have to enjoy them, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/29 "2007-09-05T00:47:56Z")
I feel almost like one of the dudes now. Thanks **VC03** and **Lou** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/30 "2007-09-05T00:58:10Z")
When talking about “pop” one shouldn’t overlook country music. I nominate Hank Williams and Willie Nelson, two composers whose best compositions transcended genre labels (Tony Bennet doing Hank Williams songs, for example.) ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/31 "2007-09-05T01:09:12Z")
The **Zombies** were a lot more sophisticated than most of the British R&B bands of their era. Then there are those musicians who aren’t at all pop, but for some reason by design or accident put out a song that gets traction in popular culture, such as **Laurie Anderson** ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/32 "2007-09-05T01:10:09Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] When talking about “pop” one shouldn’t overlook country music. I nominate Hank Williams and Willie Nelson, two composers whose best compositions transcended genre labels (Tony Bennet doing Hank Williams songs, for example.) [/QUOTE] That’s a good point–I don’t turn up my nose at country music. In fact, I’m a fan of a lot of traditional music (Doc Watson, the Carter family, Bill Monroe, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilvert_s_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/33 "2007-09-05T01:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] Then there are those musicians who aren’t at all pop, but for some reason by design or accident put out a song that gets traction in popular culture, such as **Laurie Anderson** [/QUOTE] Or **Yes**. Or **Kraftwerk** for that matter. But I don’t think this is what the OP was asking… ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/34 "2007-09-05T01:15:34Z")
I’m-a go with Fountains of Wayne. Interesting but accessible arrangements, clever lyrics and irresistable hooks. I dig 'em. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/35 "2007-09-05T01:25:53Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] The **Zombies** were a lot more sophisticated than most of the British R&B bands of their era. [/QUOTE] I was going to come in to suggest the Zombies, especially for their seminal work, _Odessey and Oracle_, a perfect pop masterpiece. You can also throw in _The Kinks_ there, for sure, and _Big Star_. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/36 "2007-09-05T01:52:52Z")
They’re kinda on the border of pop, but I think the sheer amount of work and studio time that by Tom Scholz that went into _Boston_’s albums shows some genius. But then, I’m a fan. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/37 "2007-09-05T02:53:28Z")
Some artists performing popular music today that I’d consider ‘musical geniuses’: **Jeff Tweedy** of **Wilco** **Jack White** of **The White Stripes** and **The Raconteurs** **John Prine** **A.C. Newman** of **The New Pornographers** **Prince** **Bruce Springsteen** **Warren Zevon** (well, he’s dead, but he’s made lots of recent music) **Beck** **Paul Simon** **Eminem** **Ryan Adams** ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/38 "2007-09-05T02:54:22Z")
I know that a lot of folks don’t get the appeal, but I think **Nirvana** qualifies. Particularly on _Nevermind_, there was an overall sound that I’d call pop run through a DS1 distortion pedal. Kurt always said he was a fan of the Beatles, and that sensibility really came across in a lot of his tunes (instrumentally, especially.) It doesn’t hurt that they actually cut a song called _Verse, Chorus, Verse_ either. Perhaps to an even greater degree I’d nominate **Foo Fighters** , probably because Grohl and Cobain shared a lot of the same influences. Although Nirvana’s my favorite band ever, I think Grohl is the more talented musician/vocalist. The Foos have always struck me as being sort of alterna-pop. I also kinda dig on the crunch-pop of **Green Day** and **Weezer** , though I’m not sure I’d call them genius. They’re both very good at what they do, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/39 "2007-09-05T03:04:46Z")
I’d argue that Tom Waits is a musical genius, but what he does is definitely not pop by any definition. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053/40 "2007-09-05T03:24:11Z")
No one ever names Mick Jagger on these lists, but his lyrics were better than The Beatles and he and Keith wrote tunes that could compare with anyone. And both Pete Townshend and Ray Davies merited their positions as the reminder of the top four of British pop. I also agree that it’s impossible to leave Lennon-McCartney off this list. Whether you like their work or not you have to respect the fact that virtually every knowledgeable observer of pop music over the last nearly five decades have considered them to be geniuses. Not just Jagger, but Dylan and Paul Simon and Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell and lots of their contemporaries were better than they were lyrically, but as creators of pop songs they are without peer. I’d place Steely Dan second as the total package. The jazz aspect of their compositions make them more timeless than almost any of their contemporaries, although Dire Straits and Roxy Music also feel much less timebound than most 70s acts. Bruce Cochburn is a singer/songwriter who is also a composer of fine music. His instrumentals are brilliant. Again there’s a jazz influence, such as a stunning duet with vibraphonist Gary Burton on the _Clarity of Night_ album. And I have to add in Van Morrison. He used jazz musicians instead of a rock band on the _Astral Weeks_ and \*Moondance \* albums and created classics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-bands-with-real-musical-genius/418053.md?page=3)