# Pop-culture heroes who have turned into villains **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758 "2009-05-27T01:19:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/21 "2009-05-27T17:30:54Z")
See the [tvtropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceHeelTurn) list ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/22 "2009-05-27T17:42:36Z")
Michael Corleone, Vaarsuvius, and Dr Horrible. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/23 "2009-05-27T17:53:15Z")
Dr. Horrible? ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/24 "2009-05-27T18:21:28Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > But they’re the same guy!?!?!? > > And if you’re going to use wrestlers, well, just name them all and be done with it. Nearly every beloved face winds up a dastardly heel at some point. Or vice versa. He was probably talking about Sgt. Slaughter’s “Iraqi sympathizer” phase in the early 90’s. It pretty much wrecked his career, but he was only a few years away from retiring anyway. About Hogan, he may be an interesting real life variation on this. Completely setting aside the whole NWO thing Hogan’s always been a gigantic asshole behind the scenes. Thanks to the gradual decline of secrecy surrounding the pro wrestling industry and his very public family problems far more people are aware of this than they were 10 or 20 years ago. The “real life superhero” vibe he used to have going is almost completely gone now I think. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/25 "2009-05-27T18:31:48Z")
I very vaguely remember that on _Dallas_, Bobby started out being the “good” brother and by the end, he could give J.R. a run for his money. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/26 "2009-05-27T19:44:35Z")
Marvel Comics did this with a lot of their characters in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Tony Stark aka Iron Man became an alcoholic and then a right-winger. (I am a right-winger, so that doesn’t bother me, but I hear that the writers turned him into a fascist.) Henry Pym aka Ant-Man[sup]TM[/sup] aka Giant-Man[sup]TM[/sup] aka Goliath[sup]TM[/sup] aka Yellowjacket[sup]TM[/sup] aka Doctor Pym[sup]TM[/sup] (no, I am not making this up) became a wife-beater. During the same period, they turned the Punisher, Magneto, and Sabretooth into heroes (or at least anti-heroes). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/27 "2009-05-27T19:52:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Dr. Horrible? [Dr. Horrible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Horrible%27s_Sing-Along_Blog) ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/28 "2009-05-27T19:59:58Z")
I’m a Joss nerd, so I know who it is. I was just questioning him being a hero that turned to villainy. ---
**Author:** ![santosvega](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@santosvega](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/santosvega)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/29 "2009-05-27T20:01:06Z")
Bastian in Michael Ende’s novel The Neverending Story. It was quite a shock when I read that book as a kid after seeing the film in the theater. The film stops halfway through the book, and the book continues into some pretty dark territory as I recall. I think he was redeemed at the end though; it’s been many years now since I read it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/30 "2009-05-27T20:11:11Z")
In the _X-Men_ comic books isn’t practically every character a good guy and a bad guy at some point? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/31 "2009-05-27T21:51:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m a Joss nerd, so I know who it is. I was just questioning him being a hero that turned to villainy. That’s the way I saw it. Obviously Billy was a criminal the whole time. But in the beginning of the film he was portrayed as a basically good person who commited crimes - a good guy who did bad things. The normal plot in such a situation would be to reconcile this by having him renounce his life of crime. But Whedon subverted this cliche by going the opposite way. He had Billy turn into somebody who “felt nothing” while committing crimes and ended with him becoming a criminal mastermind. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/32 "2009-05-28T18:00:43Z")
IRL, Metallica. I was never a fan of them, but my brother & several friends were very into them in high school (roughly mid-80s). They were considered to be most rebellious, anti-establishment voice in heavy metal. They represented (to some folks at any rate) the rawest, most aggressive f\*\*\* you to “the man.” Flash forward to the late-90s/early 2000s. Metallica are the loudest critics of napster and the whole downloading mp3’s phenomenon. They’re screaming to every media outlet who’ll listen about pimply-faced teenagers ripping them off. Suddenly, Metallica ARE “the man” - fighting change, opposing youth culture, greedily sucking money out of their audience’s pockets, even though they’re already loaded. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/33 "2009-05-28T18:07:13Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > But they’re the same guy!?!?!? > > And if you’re going to use wrestlers, well, just name them all and be done with it. Nearly every beloved face winds up a dastardly heel at some point. Or vice versa. Yeah, there’s not very many that never turned heel. Ricky Steamboat , maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/34 "2009-05-28T18:56:44Z")
Every face might have at least one heel turn, but aren’t there plenty of heels who never turn face? ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/35 "2009-05-28T22:26:59Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Yeah, there’s not very many that never turned heel. Ricky Steamboat , maybe. Rey Mysterio? ---
**Author:** ![tds1273](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df705f/32.png) [@tds1273](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tds1273)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/36 "2009-05-28T23:13:44Z")
A-Rod, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, etc… and in a different, er…vein, Pete Rose. In hockey: [Marty McSorely](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_McSorley)and [Todd Bertuzzi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Bertuzzi). ETA: Michael Vick I really like **The New and Improved Superman** ’s breakdown of Metallica; spot on. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/37 "2009-05-28T23:21:56Z")
With super-hero comics, you’d be hard-pressed to find a single superhero who _hasn’t_ become villainous for one reason or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/38 "2009-05-28T23:40:27Z")
The Second Wife in _Raise the Red Lantern_ (movie)/_Wives and Concubines_ (novel) initially seems to be a sweet and kindly woman. She befriend the heroine of the story (Fourth Wife) and warns her not to trust Third Wife. But Second Wife turns out to have “the face of a Buddha but the heart of a scorpion”. She plots against the other wives and exposes secrets and sometimes outright makes things up that are sure to get the other woman in trouble with their husband. She tries to cause Third Wife to have a miscarriage and helps a jealous servant make a voodoo doll of Fourth Wife to intimidate her. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/39 "2009-05-29T03:36:06Z")
In the series “Rome,” Octavian. He starts out as a kid you sympathize with, even if he is a bit haughty - his intelligence is admirable and he seems the most modern of them all, the easiest to identify with. By the end he’s an utterly sociopathic tyrant. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758/40 "2009-05-29T03:49:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In the series “Rome,” Octavian. He starts out as a kid you sympathize with, even if he is a bit haughty - his intelligence is admirable and he seems the most modern of them all, the easiest to identify with. By the end he’s an utterly sociopathic tyrant. Relatively speaking, Octavian didn’t seem all that bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-heroes-who-have-turned-into-villains/497758.md?page=3)