# Pop Culture Pulse Check **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 18, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559 "2010-10-18T15:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/41 "2010-10-18T21:57:33Z")
> [@Hades](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > If by “a single episode” you mean “the first episode”, then sure. I watched the first episode of Lost and didn’t enjoy it, either, and that’s what led me to not watch any others. 😛 > > No. I meant a single episode. You didn’t indicate what issue of Sandman you read, but if it’s something from the middle, I am sure it would make as much sense as something from the season of Lost where everyone was living in two concurrent timelines. > > It takes investment, and I’m not saying you have to read a dozen issues, or watch a full season of shows. There’s a lot more out there that I am sure would grab you immediately. I’m just explaining why a single episode from who knows when in the arc isn’t a good launchpad for a neophyte. And I don’t like Sandman, by the way. I love a number of his novels, though. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/42 "2010-10-18T22:02:01Z")
I know who Gaiman is, though I’m not familiar with most of his work. My six-year-old daughter is a big fan of _Mirrormask_. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/43 "2010-10-18T22:04:17Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > What’s the rest of your top 10, then? I’m not going to play that game. I don’t have a literal Top Ten; it was a hyperbolic remark. Yes, there’s stuff on your list that I haven’t read; there’s stuff on your list that would also be on mine (_Ulysses_ is my favorite book of all time), and there’s stuff on your list that I don’t think is anywhere close to being as good as _Sandman_. So you can now get back to your game of “Neil Gaiman isn’t as famous as you think he is, neener neener neener.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/44 "2010-10-18T22:07:26Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > In another thread, someone asserted that Neil Gaiman was part of “pop culture.” In order to get some feeling for whether this is the case, I’ve established the following poll, with the understanding that the SDMB isn’t necessarily representative of culture at large. I put it in Cafe Society because to me pop culture is defined by the media. > > Please select any and all options that apply to you. I know both. I do not, however, appreciate anything about Lady Gaga. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/45 "2010-10-18T22:08:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Done. Now, was that Lady Gaga one supposed to say “she,” or should I correct that one, too? 😉 I think you mean “it,” there, Marley. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/46 "2010-10-18T22:45:51Z")
Having now examined the preceding thread, I think this one has been running on a misinterpretation. What **DrDeth** actually said was that an _intelligent_ cultural observer would know Neil Gaiman–not necessarily that most people would. The post in question didn’t use the word “pop” at all, and the first mention of Gaiman in the thread is contrasting him with Larry the Cable Guy in the context of talking about correlation between tastes and intellect–no mention of relative celebrity status. The first mention of “pop culture” is from **Boyo Jim** , who at that moment doesn’t know who Gaiman is at all. **Shot From Guns** seizes that remark, backdates the “pop” part of it into **DrDeth** ’s earlier remark, and assumes a question of _popularity_ where there really wasn’t one. Nobody has claimed that Gaiman is as famous as Gaga, or Larry, or Octomom. The only assertion is that intelligent, culturally-conversant people ought to have a clue who he is. Expanding upon that assertion, > [@Hell's Kitchen, and it's viewers.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/62): > > > [@Hell's Kitchen, and it's viewers.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/57): > > > > Interesting that you relate cultural literacy to intelligence. > > Well, he’s a rather well known award winning author, not TV. A number of his books have been adpated for film, such as _Stardust_ and\* Coraline\*. > > And I do relate the two to an extent. For example, I expect any intelligent person to \*know who \*Robert Heinlein is, even if they don’t read SF. Now, sure- to be able to name all his books and discuss film adaptations veers past simple cultural literacy towards geekness. I expect them to \*know who \*Ang Lee is, who Ringo Starr is, and so forth. That’s just part of being well read. “Rather well known” here is the first suggestion of Gaiman’s degree of fame, and it’s hardly hyperbolic. We might debate _which_ names should be on the list, but the basic notion–that _smart_ and _literate_ people ought to recognize certain names–seems unremarkable to me. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/47 "2010-10-18T23:13:52Z")
> [@Hades](#): > > No. I meant a single episode. You didn’t indicate what issue of Sandman you read, but if it’s something from the middle, I am sure it would make as much sense as something from the season of Lost where everyone was living in two concurrent timelines. I used the word “first” in my post. The books were numbered and so I grabbed the first one. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/48 "2010-10-18T23:16:25Z")
From context, I took that to mean you didn’t like the first one you read. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/49 "2010-10-18T23:33:17Z")
I wouldn’t want to start midway through a series like that. It’d be like watching a single episode halfway through Lost! ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/50 "2010-10-18T23:53:49Z")
I recognize Neil Gaiman’s name because I’ve seen him mentioned in other threads here on the Dope. After looking at his Wikipedia entry it looks like I’ve seen the film adaptation of **Stardust** , which I enjoyed very much. However, it looks like he co-wrote the screenplay to **Beowulf** , which I thought was a terrible film. I’ve neither seen nor read his other works. ---
**Author:** ![Gil-Martin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Gil-Martin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gil-Martin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/51 "2010-10-19T00:04:09Z")
I know who Lady Gaga is, what she’s famous for, and she has at least one song that can get stuck in my head if I let it. I know who Neal Gaiman is, but none of his work that I’ve seen has appealed to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/52 "2010-10-19T00:16:33Z")
The poll should offer the option: “The Straight Dope Message Board: I know what it is and what it is famous for.” How can anyone be pop-culture-aware without that?! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/53 "2010-10-19T00:25:08Z")
Outside the Dope I don’t know much about Gaiman. If it hadn’t been for Coraline and the Graveyard Book (haven’t read either but have heard about them), would never have heard about him outside the SDMB at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/54 "2010-10-20T16:21:03Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > I’m not going to play that game. Suit yourself. > [@](#): > > So you can now get back to your game of “Neil Gaiman isn’t as famous as you think he is, neener neener neener.” Thank you. > [@spark240](#): > > What **DrDeth** actually said was that an _intelligent_ cultural observer would know Neil Gaiman–not necessarily that most people would. The post in question didn’t use the word “pop” at all, Yes, I’m aware of the wording of the first post of that thread of discussion, seeing as I’m the one who linked it for you. You’ll also note that I didn’t say \*\*DrDeth \*\*specifically called it pop culture at that point–merely that it started the chain of discussion. Here’s a more relevant post: > [@Hell's Kitchen, and it's viewers.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/65): > > However, his many award winning books and two well known films put him into mainstream writer. No, that has nothing to do with whether someone is a \*mainstream \*writer. Dan Brown, Danielle Steele, Stephen King, Stephanieyie Maeyerer whateverthefuck: \*those \*are mainstream writers. How \*good \*you are is not a measure of how \*mainstream \*you are, or you wouldn’t be able to find a single copy of a \*Twilight \*book in so much as a thrift store next to the ten-cent romances. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/55 "2010-10-20T16:29:06Z")
I am not at all sure this is the board where you will find out what is NORMALLY considered pop culture. Seems to be a huge fanboy bias here. Of course most know who Gaiman is. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/56 "2010-10-20T17:44:51Z")
I think that when over 1/5 of the people responding to \*this \*poll on \*this \*forum have never even \*heard \*of him (versus barely over 1% who haven’t heard of Lady Gaga), it makes a pretty good point about how mainstream he is (or, rather, isn’t). ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/57 "2010-10-20T18:35:26Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > What’s the rest of your top 10, then? I can tell you quite honestly that I couldn’t give you a list, but I can tell you that it would have to be at least an order of magnitude larger for anything by Gaiman to be on it. While he writes \*very good, very enjoyable \*fiction, I don’t think any of it comes close to the art or complexity of the works of the \*truly greatest \*authors of the 20th century. > > Here, _off the top of my head_, I’ll give you ten books from the 20th century that I think were better than _Sandman_: > > _Midnight’s Children_, Salman Rushdie > _Remains of the Day_, Kazuo Ishiguro > _Things Fall Apart_, Chinua Achebe > _The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle_, Haruki Murakami > _The Unbearable Lightness of Being_, Milan Kundera > _Nip the Buds, Shoot the Kids_, Kenzaburo Oe > _The Crying of Lot 49_, Thomas Pynchon > _A Confederacy of Dunces_, John Kenndy Toole > _Catch-22_, Joseph Heller > _Ulysses_, James Joyce > > Please tell me which of these books you think \*Sandman \*is better than, and why. (Because you believe it’s one of the top ten, it must be better than at least one of these.) I personally find Rushdie, Murakami and _A Confederacy of Dunces_ the most _overrated_ literature of the past 100 years. I’d stick in some Dos Passos, Borges and Kobo Abe (maybe even John O’Hara or Salinger) in their place. Still, I agree calling Gaiman one of the 10 greatest literature writers of the 20th century is vastly overstating his skills. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/58 "2010-10-20T19:34:53Z")
You think they don’t belong on a top 10 list, or you think they were crap? I won’t argue if you say there’s _better_–after all, you’ll note, these are simply ten random books that are IMO better than _Sandman_, not a top-anything list. Dos Passos and Borges I haven’t read, but I have enjoyed Abe. Speaking of which, is _The Ark Sakura_ any good? It’s been kicking around my shelves for a couple of years since I picked it up for like a quarter at the downtown library’s used book store. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/59 "2010-10-20T20:01:55Z")
One is an extremely talented writer and artist that has altered the landscape of their art. The other is some British guy I just heard about yesterday. The thing about Gaga is that she’s a multifaceted experience. She doesn’t just do pop vocals. She does fashion. She does performance. Her shows, for example, feature a storyline with a full theatrical performance. Contrast that with, say, P Diddy or Garth Brooks. It’s no surprise that the Dope loathes her. It’s an old crowd here. You won’t like her music unless you still go clubbing. And since most of you are past those days, it’s no shock that you’re more familiar/bigger fans of the comic book guy. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/60 "2010-10-20T21:17:06Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You think they don’t belong on a top 10 list, or you think they were crap? I won’t argue if you say there’s _better_–after all, you’ll note, these are simply ten random books that are IMO better than _Sandman_, not a top-anything list. > > Dos Passos and Borges I haven’t read, but I have enjoyed Abe. Speaking of which, is _The Ark Sakura_ any good? It’s been kicking around my shelves for a couple of years since I picked it up for like a quarter at the downtown library’s used book store. _Dunces_ I tried to read about 20 times and could never get into it. Murakami and Rushdie I just found unmoving. Obviously they have talent; I just found them lacking in heart. I’ve got _The Ark Sakura_ unread on my shelf at home, as well - perhaps that’ll be the next one I crack open. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559.md?page=4)