# Pop Culture Pulse Check **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 18, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559 "2010-10-18T15:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/61 "2010-10-20T21:34:14Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > _Dunces_ I tried to read about 20 times and could never get into it. _Dunces_ seems to be one of those polarizing books like _Catcher In the Rye_. While I don’t identify with them, I love the protagonists in both books, and Confederacy of Dunces is one of the funniest damned books I’ve ever read. I can’t believe I only discovered it in my late 20s. Still, point is, it does seem to be a love-it-or-hate-it book. I’m not exactly sure _why_ this is so, but my interactions with others about this novel seem to indicate this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/62 "2010-10-20T21:49:48Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I’ve got _The Ark Sakura_ unread on my shelf at home, as well - perhaps that’ll be the next one I crack open. My god, I should start a poll–maybe no one’s ever actually read it! 😃 > [@pulykamell](#): > > While I don’t identify with them, I love the protagonists in both books, and Confederacy of Dunces is one of the funniest damned books I’ve ever read. Same. I only read it the once (about 10 years ago now), but I remember it being hilarious. I have a copy somewhere at home that I keep meaning to re-read. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/63 "2010-10-21T17:08:27Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Having now examined the preceding thread, I think this one has been running on a misinterpretation. > > What **DrDeth** actually said was that an _intelligent_ cultural observer would know Neil Gaiman–not necessarily that most people would. …The first mention of “pop culture” is from **Boyo Jim** , who at that moment doesn’t know who Gaiman is at all. **Shot From Guns** seizes that remark, backdates the “pop” part of it into **DrDeth** ’s earlier remark, and assumes a question of _popularity_ where there really wasn’t one. Nobody has claimed that Gaiman is as famous as Gaga, or Larry, or Octomom. The only assertion is that intelligent, culturally-conversant people ought to have a clue who he is. Expanding upon that assertion, > > “Rather well known” here is the first suggestion of Gaiman’s degree of fame, and it’s hardly hyperbolic. > > We might debate _which_ names should be on the list, but the basic notion–that _smart_ and _literate_ people ought to recognize certain names–seems unremarkable to me. Right. In fact for years, my knowledge of Gaiman was based mostly upon his co-authorship of a book with Terry Pratchett, of whom I am a huge fan. It’s still Neils best book IMHO, but others are also good. I was then lent the Sandman series, and I agree it’s pretty damn good. Lady Gaga is famous now, but I think will be mostly forgotten in a decade. Not that shes doesn’t have talent mind you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/64 "2010-10-21T17:12:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > No, that has nothing to do with whether someone is a \*mainstream \*writer. Dan Brown, Danielle Steele, Stephen King, Stephanieyie Maeyerer whateverthefuck: \*those \*are mainstream writers. How \*good \*you are is not a measure of how \*mainstream \*you are, or you wouldn’t be able to find a single copy of a \*Twilight \*book in so much as a thrift store next to the ten-cent romances. Context is all. I was comparing Comics to Literature. Gaiman is no longer “just” a comics writer. Stephen King writes SF/Horror, so how is he mainstream while Gaiman is not? Or is your defintion of “mainstream”= Bestseller? Or how the local bookstore shelves them? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/65 "2010-10-21T19:10:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Context is all. I was comparing Comics to Literature. Gaiman is no longer “just” a comics writer. Stephen King writes SF/Horror, so how is he mainstream while Gaiman is not? Or is your defintion of “mainstream”= Bestseller? Or how the local bookstore shelves them? 😕 I’m saying that someone who is conversant in U.S. culture has no real reason to know who Neil Gaiman is. He’s a very enjoyable writer, but not recognizing his name doesn’t mean you’re ignorant of our culture, because he isn’t a part of the mainstream. [[QUOTE=m-w.com](http://QUOTE=m-w.com)’s definition of mainstream] a prevailing current or direction of activity or influence [/QUOTE] It has nothing to do with your genre, and everything to do with who recognizes you, is influenced by your work, etc. People who like comic books know Gaiman. People who read fantasy know Gaiman. Neither of those is a majority in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/66 "2010-10-21T19:14:04Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > One caveat on Lady Gaga: I’ve seen her, I know she sings, and I know she dresses outrageously, but I couldn’t pick out any of her songs at all. Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/67 "2010-10-21T19:17:03Z")
Maybe this will help clarify things: With the success of its films, \*Iron Man \*is now mainstream and part of American pop culture. Matt Fraction, who I believe is the writer for the current iteration of the Iron Man comic, is not. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/68 "2010-10-21T19:36:14Z")
I actually like some Lady Gaga’s songs. I have no idea who Neil Gaiman is. I have found out that he is an author. I saw the Stardust movie with DeNiro. The book might be a masterpiece, but the movie was a crapfest. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/69 "2010-10-27T23:50:30Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Here, _off the top of my head_, I’ll give you ten books from the 20th century that I think were better than _Sandman_: > > _Midnight’s Children_, Salman Rushdie > _Remains of the Day_, Kazuo Ishiguro > _Things Fall Apart_, Chinua Achebe > _The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle_, Haruki Murakami > _The Unbearable Lightness of Being_, Milan Kundera > _Nip the Buds, Shoot the Kids_, Kenzaburo Oe > _The Crying of Lot 49_, Thomas Pynchon > _A Confederacy of Dunces_, John Kenndy Toole > _Catch-22_, Joseph Heller > _Ulysses_, James Joyce > > Please tell me which of these books you think \*Sandman \*is better than, and why. (Because you believe it’s one of the top ten, it must be better than at least one of these.) Sandman is really very good. On your list I have read Things Fall Apart I like Sandman better A confederacy of Dunces I like Sandman better Catch-22 is better than Sandman ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/70 "2010-10-28T15:22:24Z")
Well then I must simply find your taste in literature inexplicable. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/71 "2010-10-28T15:29:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’m saying that someone who is conversant in U.S. culture has no real reason to know who Neil Gaiman is. He’s a very enjoyable writer, but not recognizing his name doesn’t mean you’re ignorant of our culture, because he isn’t a part of the mainstream. > … > It has nothing to do with your genre, and everything to do with who recognizes you, is influenced by your work, etc. People who like comic books know Gaiman. People who read fantasy know Gaiman. Neither of those is a majority in the U.S. **Shot From Guns** , do you believe that “pop culture” is comprised only of “the mainstream”? Test question: Were the Velvet Underground part of pop culture? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/72 "2010-10-28T15:37:00Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Maybe this will help clarify things: > > With the success of its films, \*Iron Man \*is now mainstream and part of American pop culture. Matt Fraction, who I believe is the writer for the current iteration of the Iron Man comic, is not. You’re right, that probably answers it. I disagree. Obscure sources and influences are as much part of the (any) culture as their better-known derivations. _Cultures_ have history and context. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/73 "2010-10-28T15:40:03Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > **Shot From Guns** , do you believe that “pop culture” is comprised only of “the mainstream”? I will answer a question with a question. What do you think “pop” is short for? > [@spark240](#): > > I disagree. Obscure sources and influences are as much part of the (any) culture as their better-known derivations. Absolutely. But they are not a part of its \*pop \*culture. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/74 "2010-10-28T17:09:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I will answer a question with a question. What do you think “pop” is short for? This is silly hyper-literalism. It’s exactly analogous to saying that no record that failed to make the Top 40 is “pop” music. “Pop” cutlture, in my understanding at least, refers to _types_ of culture that belong to the masses as opposed to the academies. _All_ comic books are pop culture, _all_ rock & roll is pop culture, _all_ television is pop culture. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Well then I must simply find your taste in literature inexplicable. “In literature as in love, we are astonished by what is chosen by others.” It works both ways, lady. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/75 "2010-10-28T17:17:56Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Pratchett? Never heard of him. > > 😃 I realize you’re probably joking but I’m not. I’ve heard the name but assumed he was a she. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/76 "2010-10-28T18:39:28Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > “Pop” cutlture, in my understanding at least, refers to _types_ of culture that belong to the masses as opposed to the academies. Well then you and I have very different understandings of the meaning of “pop culture.” And if you consider Wikipedia a reasonably accurate source on popular (heh) subjects, I’m right and you’re wrong. [QUOTE=[Popular culture - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_culture)] Popular culture (commonly known as pop culture) is the totality of ideas, perspectives, attitudes, memes, images and other phenomena that are deemed preferred per an informal consensus within the mainstream of a given culture, especially Western culture of the early to mid 20th century and the emerging global mainstream of the late 20th and early 21st century. Heavily influenced by mass media, this collection of ideas permeates the everyday lives of the society. [/QUOTE] “Pop” can be a genre with regard to music or art; but when one discusses pop culture, one is specifically talking about what is _literally popular_. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/77 "2010-10-28T19:54:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > And if you consider Wikipedia a reasonably accurate source on popular (heh) subjects, I’m right and you’re wrong. No. You’re reading into that description what you want to see: latching onto the word “mainstream” and ignoring the word “totality.” In fact, there’s nothing in the Wikipedia “definition” (which is not a definitive explanation, but merely a topic sentence in an article that goes on to acknowledge the “contested” meanings of both words in the phrase) that conflicts with my understanding of the term. “Pop culture” is the **totality** of cultural artifacts that are not accepted within the bounds of High Culture. Yes, pop culture belongs to the masses, and is in that sense mainstream, but it is also huge and multifaceted, and much of it belongs to smaller subcultures. A significant aspect of the appeal of some pop culture, is that it is _not_ mainstream but exclusive to one’s own group, particularly _age_ group. In short, Deadmau5 is every bit as much pop culture as Mickey Mouse. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/78 "2010-10-28T20:17:46Z")
Excuse me? \*I’m \*the one reading into it what I want to see? Did you seriously just stop at the word “totality” and not keep going through even the rest of that single sentence? Let’s look \*again \*at what it \*actually \*says. Emphasis added by me. > [@](#): > > Popular culture […] is the totality of […] phenomena that are \*\*deemed preferred \*\*per an \*\*informal consensus \*\*within the \*\*mainstream \*\*of a given culture […] **Heavily influenced by mass media** , this collection of ideas \*\*permeates the everyday lives \*\*of the society. 1.) Pop culture is defined by what is popular. 2.) Pop culture is mainstream. 3.) Pop culture is often created by and emphasized by mass media. 4.) Pop culture is part of everyday life. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/79 "2010-10-29T01:23:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Excuse me? \*I’m \*the one reading into it what I want to see? Did you seriously just stop at the word “totality” and not keep going through even the rest of that single sentence? No, I didn’t. I also didn’t stop at the first sentence of the article, as I noticed that your own cite points out that there is no single, agreed-upon definition of pop culture, and that the meaning of “popular” in the phrase is an [essentially contested concept](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentially_contested_concept). Your dogmatic, literal-minded interpretation of the term is overly simplistic and limited. > [@](#): > > Let’s look \*again \*at what it \*actually \*says. Emphasis added by me. > > 1.) Pop culture is defined by what is popular. Funny how it doesn’t _actually say_ that. > [@](#): > > 2.) Pop culture is mainstream. Nope. There’s pop culture inside and outside of the mainstream. **spark240** ’s example is excellent. The Velvet Underground are pop culture _icons_, but have never been mainstream. > [@](#): > > 3.) Pop culture is often created by and emphasized by mass media. Well, of course. So what? > [@](#): > > 4.) Pop culture is part of everyday life. So is high culture. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559/80 "2010-10-29T16:40:40Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > No, I didn’t. I also didn’t stop at the first sentence of the article, as I noticed that your own cite points out that there is no single, agreed-upon definition of pop culture, and that the meaning of “popular” in the phrase is an [essentially contested concept](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentially_contested_concept). Yes, but \*the most commonly agreed-upon meaning \*is the one from the introductory paragraph. > [@](#): > > Your dogmatic, literal-minded interpretation of the term is overly simplistic and limited. Your insistence that “pop culture” includes every single thing under the sun renders the term useless and meaningless. > [@](#): > > Funny how it doesn’t _actually say_ that. Yes it does. “Popular culture […] is the totality of […] phenomena that are deemed preferred per an informal consensus within the mainstream of a given culture.” Unless you can think of something that “preferred per an informal consensus within the mainstream” means other than “popular.” And you’re going to get a rolleyes now. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pop-culture-pulse-check/557559.md?page=3)