# Pope Benedict XVI and Catholic Jewish relations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564 "2009-01-29T16:18:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/101 "2009-02-04T20:21:22Z")
Thank you for the answer **Sarahfeena**. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/102 "2009-02-04T20:36:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thank you for the answer **Sarahfeena**. You are welcome! I hope it helps. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/103 "2009-02-07T20:45:21Z")
It did. [Update.](http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062235.html) Williamson is in no hurry to recant but leaves the possibility open that he will at some future time. > [@](#): > > On Wednesday, the Vatican demanded that Williamson recant his denial before he can be admitted as a bishop into the Roman Catholic Church. Williamson made clear he does not plan to comply immediately, the weekly Der Spiegel reported. > > “Since I see that there are many honest and intelligent people who think differently, I must look again at the historical evidence,” the British bishop was quoted as saying. > > “It is about historical evidence, not about emotions,” he added, according to the report. “And if I find this evidence, I will correct myself. But that will take time.” … “I will not go to Auschwitz,” Meanwhile the Pope’s demand has satisfied many of his critics, even though all it means is that Williamson cannot progress to the next step of acting as a Bishop within the Church unless he does. The broader discussion of what this does or does not foretell in terms of parsing Vatican 2 rightward is absent in most media coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/104 "2009-02-07T22:03:30Z")
I am really quite surprised his comments about women have not received more press than they have. I guess the Pope does want to take the Catholic world back 1000 years. > [@Bishop Williamson](#): > > Dear Friends and Benefactors: > > Canadians strike me as a gentle people; but “strike” is the word! Ten yeas ago I was innocently asked in Canada whether women should wear trousers. Some ten weeks ago, also in Canada, I was asked whether a girl should go to a conservative Novus Ordo university. The answer now to the second question may be as stormy as the answer to the first:- because of all kinds of natural reasons, almost no girl should go to any university! > > The deep-down reason is the same as for the wrongness of women’s trousers: the unwomaning of woman. The deep-down cause in both cases is that Revolutionary man has betrayed modem woman; since she is not respected and loved for being a woman, she tries to make herself a man. Since modem man does not want her to do what God meant her to do, namely to have children, she takes her revenge by invading all kinds of things that man is meant to do. What else was to be expected? Modem man has only himself to blame. > > In fact, only in modern times have women dreamt of going to university, but the idea has now become so normal that even Catholics, whose Faith guards Nature, may have difficulty in seeing the problem. However, here is a pointer in the direction of normalcy: any Catholic with the least respect for Tradition recognizes that women should not be priests - can he deny that if few women went to university, almost none would wish to be priests? Alas, women going to university is part of the whole massive onslaught on God’s Nature which characterizes our times. That girls should not be in universities flows from the nature of universities and from the nature of girls: true universities are for ideas, ideas are not for true girls, so true universities are not for true girls [http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/September1-2001.htm](http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/September1-2001.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/105 "2009-02-08T00:11:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The reality is he can’t maintain state religious coercion, he just doesn’t have the power to do it. Someone who does not recognize state religious coercion as evil in itself, but merely accepts that he can’t have it (for now) is not to be trusted with a full place at the table, any more than a kleptomaniac who restrains himself out of fear (for now) is to be trusted with your bankroll. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/106 "2009-02-08T06:26:09Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > I guess the Pope does want to take the Catholic world back 1000 years. Williamson, you mean. There’s no evidence the pope shares his views. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/107 "2009-02-08T07:26:53Z")
[Another update.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/02/07/germany.bishop/index.html) > [@](#): > > Germany’s Catholic bishops are calling for the expulsion of a former bishop, recently brought back into the church by Pope Benedict XVI, after new reports that he denies the Holocaust. … Archbishop Robert Zollitsch said the church should part ways with Bishop Richard Williamson, a member of an ultra-conservative group that split off after Pope John Paul II excommunicated him and three other bishops in 1988. > > “Mr. Williamson is impossible and irresponsible,” Zollitsch, chairman of the German Bishops’ Conference, told the magazine in an article published Saturday. “I now see no room for him in the Catholic Church.” So much for this healing the schism, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/108 "2009-02-08T20:57:18Z")
> [@Bishop Williamson](#): > > That girls should not be in universities… > flows from …the nature of girls > true universities are for ideas, > ideas are not for true girls Gah, it’s like bad song lyrics. Maybe Williamson can make amends to female Catholics through his own recording of the Dwight Twilley song _Girls_: > [@](#): > > Well I’ve seen so many things, I’ve been all over the world > I’ve had ups and downs, I’ve been over for a while > I thought I knew everything between the bad and the good > Guess I was wrong because I misunderstood > about Girls > [@Bishop Williamson](#): > > “It (the Holocaust) is about historical evidence, not about emotions,” he added, according to the report. “And if I find this evidence, I will correct myself.” Hint: the evidence is not to be found in your dog-eared copy of the _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/109 "2009-02-09T11:58:20Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > It should be noted that the guys he rehabilitated (and what he did was dis-excommunicate them, i.e., only acknowledge that they are no longer beyond the pale – somewhat different to giving them a good conduct medal) were excommunicated in the first place not for their (it now emerges) goofy views on what the Nazis did, but for schismatic behavior (following a dissident bishop who was in open revolt against the Vatican). So it’s an internal governance matter.[emphasis added] Auschwitz-Birkenau, the “Reinhardt Aktion” camps – the whole of the Holocaust – were all “internal governance matters”, too! Just because something is “an internal governance matter” doesn’t make it any less despicable. Pedantic arguments in academic, doctrinal defense of what in the real world genuinely amounts to official reconciliation with vociferous, boastful, blatant Holocaust deniers from the very pinnacle of the Roman Catholic hierarchy are utterly without moral integrity and honesty. They are facile to say the least. It disgusts most people simply because it is, in fact, thoroughly disgusting. No scholarly recitation of official Catholic doctrine or punctilious academic defenses such as: _“To deny the Holocaust is not a heresy even though it is a lie,…The excommunication can be lifted because he Williamson is not a heretic, but he remains a liar”_ can ever remove the rancid **stink** of this morally indefensible decision, despicably brought to us by former Hitler Youth, Pope Benedict XVI. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/110 "2009-02-09T12:01:09Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Including his decisions about internal disciplinary proceedings? That hardly is a necessary truism. See my post above. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/111 "2009-02-09T12:27:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The Catholic Church is in the business of saving souls as they see it. Relationships with Jews are irrelevant if they conflict with the core mission. As simple as that, huh? There’s no room for morality in Catholicism? Get in the way of our goal and you’re dead or as good as? Ah, certainty: The greatest enemy of truth. Well, my Catholic teacher of Church Dogma and also Church History at the Catholic High School I attended would certainly agree with you on that (much to our horror). He was a scrupulously honest man who refused to pull any punches in regard to revealing the unspeakable evil of what happens when the Church takes that view. The view you espoused is certainly very popular with anti-Semites, anyway. Roman Catholic or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/112 "2009-02-09T13:59:12Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > Pedantic arguments in academic, doctrinal defense of what in the real world genuinely amounts to official reconciliation with vociferous, boastful, blatant Holocaust deniers from the very pinnacle of the Roman Catholic hierarchy are utterly without moral integrity and honesty. They are facile to say the least. They appear to also be figments of your imagination. Of the four bishops whose excommunication was lifted, only one has denied the event of the Holocaust. His denial was first made public in a televiion interview in Sweden the week that the long-negotiated lifting was announced. His comments were immediately condemned by his own superior in the organization when they were noted in France. His comments were immediately condemned by the pope when they became public. His own organization has dismissed him from his position as rector of a seminary when his comments were aired. The Vatican also announced that if Williamson persisted in his views, his reconciliation with the church would go no further than it already has. When Williamson defended his comments, the Vatican upped the ante by declaring more strongly that his position was not defensible and demanding that he recant them. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/113 "2009-02-09T14:32:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > They appear to also be figments of your imagination. > > Of the four bishops whose excommunication was lifted, only one has denied the event of the Holocaust. His denial was first made public in a televiion interview in Sweden the week that the long-negotiated lifting was announced. > > His comments were immediately condemned by his own superior in the organization when they were noted in France. > His comments were immediately condemned by the pope when they became public. > His own organization has dismissed him from his position as rector of a seminary when his comments were aired. > The Vatican also announced that if Williamson persisted in his views, his reconciliation with the church would go no further than it already has. > > When Williamson defended his comments, the Vatican upped the ante by declaring more strongly that his position was not defensible and demanding that he recant them. The [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_(bishop)) page on him shows he has been a known Holocaust denier for decades. Many of the footnoted links go to now ‘unavailable’ SPXX web pages. He also believes the US Govt was behind 9/11 and has a long history of good old fashioned Jew hating. None of this was a secret except to you and Ratso. Articles from 1989 are in the footnotes. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/114 "2009-02-09T18:13:56Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_(bishop)) page on him shows he has been a known Holocaust denier for decades. > > Many of the footnoted links go to now ‘unavailable’ SPXX web pages. > > He also believes the US Govt was behind 9/11 and has a long history of good old fashioned Jew hating. > > None of this was a secret except to you and Ratso. > > Articles from 1989 are in the footnotes. Yes, but so what? Nobody’s saying he’s a nice guy or that he’s not nutso. But none of that stuff…the anti-semitism, denying the holocaust, believing 9/11 is a conspiracy, is grounds for excommunication. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/115 "2009-02-09T20:57:07Z")
Seems like we need a recap: The schism was formed over the fact that the SPXX boys objected to Vatican 2, both in its liturgical changes and more so in its call to treat other religions (at least the other Abrahamic religions) as something other than the enemy. They did not like the idea that the use of force to enforce the acceptance of the Church’s truth statements was officially now a Not Good Thing. The line to excommunication was crossed when they were elevated to Bishops “illegally.” They are still Bishops; that act remains undone. The grounds for excommunication still exist as much as they ever did. Again _a major, perhaps the major_ cause for the schism was regarding how the Church interfaced with other faiths including Judaism. The SPXX group have not publicly done anything different since excommunication other than to state that the excommunication is painful. Williamson’s views are well known. The Pope has rehabilitated them anyway. They cannot yet function as Bishops but they are again in communion with the Church. This in the service of healing the schism: undo the excommunication without any public show of remorse for actions which remain done and underlieing antipathies to Vatican 2 that are apparently still held - even to the point of one member of the group continuing to actively engage in Holocaust denial. There is speculation that the Pope _must have_ obtained assurances that they will negotiate on the interpretation of Vatican 2. Or else why rehabilitate now when they have not done anything to demonstrate that the conditions or beliefs that led to their still done act have changed? Of course the converse is that the Pope must have agreed to revisit how to interpret Vatican 2 as well. The Pope’s Cardinal in charge of Jewish relations was not consulted. So the Pope has clearly signaled that there will be some movement regarding how the Church and the SPXX group each view Vatican 2 and clearly holding explicitly anti-Semitic beliefs is not a deal breaker in that negotiation. Ecumenism and tolerance as a key part of Vatican 2 is clearly signaled as passe. The goal was to heal the schism by basically telling the SPXX group that they would be back in communion with the Church without any change on their part. The message has been sent to all who care that Vatican 2’s call for better relations with Jews and Muslims is something that a Pope may make nice statements about but that are not really so important. The climate for virulent anti-Semitism and Islamophobia is encouraged. The Pope has responded to the firestorm of concerns resulting from this action, including perhaps most effectively from Angela Merkel, by reassuring the public that _he_ does not personally hold those beliefs and by demanding that Williamson recant else not progress to being able to function as a Bishop (the elevation to which was the cause of the excommunication in the first place). Williamson has responded that he is no hurry to comply with that demand. And judging from the response of some Bishops and Cardinals (see upthread) the schism doesn’t appear too healed as a result either. Holocaust denial is not the most critical issue here. It merely potently illustrates the facts that exist. The Church’s positions on tolerance, in place since Vatican 2, are open for compromise. How far the compromise will go is unknown. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/116 "2009-02-09T21:43:15Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > As simple as that, huh? There’s no room for morality in Catholicism? Get in the way of our goal and you’re dead or as good as? :rolleyes: Tepid relations =/= pogroms. Besides it’s Jews in this case making all the threats to good relations. > [@](#): > > Ah, certainty: The greatest enemy of truth. You are essentially saying that Catholics should subordinate their beliefs to Jewish political opinion. Oh, and that you are ‘certain’ that your opinion is the more moral one. > [@](#): > > Well, my Catholic teacher of Church Dogma and also Church History at the Catholic High School I attended would certainly agree with you on that (much to our horror). He was a scrupulously honest man who refused to pull any punches in regard to revealing the unspeakable evil of what happens when the Church takes that view. Heh, polemics. > [@](#): > > The view you espoused is certainly very popular with anti-Semites, anyway. Roman Catholic or otherwise. :rolleyes: Yes, the Catholic church not subordinating its purpose to Jewish political opinion is anti-semitism. It seems to me that not agreeing with Jews 100% down the line is anti-semitism in that case. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/117 "2009-02-09T21:44:51Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_(bishop)) page on him shows he has been a known Holocaust denier for decades. > > Many of the footnoted links go to now ‘unavailable’ SPXX web pages. > > He also believes the US Govt was behind 9/11 and has a long history of good old fashioned Jew hating. > > None of this was a secret except to you and Ratso. > > Articles from 1989 are in the footnotes. I wonder if they have an opening at Trinity. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/118 "2009-02-09T21:46:23Z")
Essentially what people are saying is that Excommunication should be something that Jews can vote upon. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/119 "2009-02-09T22:00:44Z")
Tell me **mswas** - Do you think that Jews have no reason or justification to be interested in how Catholics are encouraged to think about them and their relationships to them? Has the Church’s past been something that should reassure Jews (and other “others”) that “internal” Church dealings regarding how to consider Jews (among others) presents no risk to any one’s safety? Are the interests of “good relations” best served by Jews ignoring actions that signal the acceptance of that which can only create a climate that allows for the hate of others (such as Jews) to grow? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564/120 "2009-02-10T03:06:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Tell me **mswas** - > > Do you think that Jews have no reason or justification to be interested in how Catholics are encouraged to think about them and their relationships to them? No I think they have every reason. > [@](#): > > Has the Church’s past been something that should reassure Jews (and other “others”) that “internal” Church dealings regarding how to consider Jews (among others) presents no risk to any one’s safety? No, but taking your ball and going home doesn’t make you safer. > [@](#): > > Are the interests of “good relations” best served by Jews ignoring actions that signal the acceptance of that which can only create a climate that allows for the hate of others (such as Jews) to grow? Recent events do not qualify under this category. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-benedict-xvi-and-catholic-jewish-relations/483564.md?page=7)