# Pope calls health care an "Inalienable Right". What's the right-wing spin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262 "2010-11-19T20:34:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/61 "2010-11-20T07:15:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Sure. But now the economically right Catholics have something working against them. Funny. Yes, but that’s hardly new. They’ve had something working against them since, well, last year, when Benedict issued _Caritas in Veritate_, where he said that a market economy based on self interest doesn’t work, that the government should make it a primary goal to decrease unemployment, and spoke out against patents on medical drugs and for protecting the environment. Or 1961 encyclical _Mater Et Magistra_\*, which said that it was a country’s moral duty to mandate a living wage, a progressive income tax system, government pension and large amounts of foreign aid paid by rich countries to equalize the global disparity of wealth. Or even earlier, 1931’s _Quadragesimo Anno_, when Pius Xi condemned unrestrained capitalism and called for redistribution of wealth when necessary to serve the public good. Or for that matter, 1891’s _Rerum Novarum_, where Leo XIII said that workers have the right to form unions and strike and be paid a living wage. Since at least 1891, the Catholic church has been speaking out against exploitation of workers and that states had a moral duty to care about the welfare of their citizens, and employers, their employees. ---
**Author:** ![acetylene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@acetylene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acetylene)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/62 "2010-11-20T13:42:09Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Catholics have actually waged war against Popes in the past. Could you elaborate on this? I’m afraid Google is not my friend here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/63 "2010-11-20T13:58:51Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So which of your rights would you like me to provide, and perhaps control. You personally, are you a dictator or something? Most of the countries that recognize inalienable rights are democratic republics. This means that rights are provided, and maintained by the people through agents employed in a hiring process known as an “election”. Equal treatment under the law is an inalienable right, yet it was provided in the south by the federal government. The right to be secure in your person is provided by police protection, and the courts make sure the police themselves do not abuse that right. The courts themselves are watched by the people, and as was learned the 1930s Supreme court, even those appointed for life can be disposed if they piss enough people off. What is a freedom of the press without police to protect the press from vandalism, fear, and intimidation? What of speech without the same protection? Religion? The point is clear, are rights exist on paper, and in our minds, but they need real action to be maintained or the stronger will trample the weaker. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/64 "2010-11-20T14:56:13Z")
Rights are not provided. They are possessed by virtue of being human, and all true rights are some form of the right to be left alone. Anything that requires someone else to _provide_ the benefit is not a right. It could be good social policy, it could be a damn good thing to support. But it doesn’t involve a right. Some people in this thread seem to be confusing a government’s legitimate duty to defend rights (i.e., stop people from stepping on another’s rights) and providing a specific benefit that would not exist without that accommodation. Inalienable rights can be _violated_, but they are not _provided_. You’re born with them (if you believe in such things). I always invoke the desert island test. You’re on a desert island, just you and another person. Could your right to freely express yourself be violated? Your right to practice your religious beliefs? Of course they could. But they would still be your rights. Suppose on that island you got cancer. Your island mate is not a doctor. Are your rights being violated, since no one is caring for your health concern? Who is violating them, exactly? Say you’re a ten-year old kid. Is your right to an education being violated? Who is violating it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/65 "2010-11-20T15:02:14Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Rights are not provided. They are possessed by virtue of being human, and all true rights are some form of the right to be left alone. Anything that requires someone else to _provide_ the benefit is not a right. It could be good social policy, it could be a damn good thing to support. But it doesn’t involve a right. Some people in this thread seem to be confusing a government’s legitimate duty to defend rights (i.e., stop people from stepping on another’s rights) and providing a specific benefit that would not exist without that accommodation. Inalienable rights can be _violated_, but they are not _provided_. You’re born with them (if you believe in such things). > > I always invoke the desert island test. You’re on a desert island, just you and another person. Could your right to freely express yourself be violated? Your right to practice your religious beliefs? Of course they could. But they would still be your rights. > > Suppose on that island you got cancer. Your island mate is not a doctor. Are your rights being violated, since no one is caring for your health concern? Who is violating them, exactly? Say you’re a ten-year old kid. Is your right to an education being violated? Who is violating it? Your mate thinks you’ve committed a crime, and wants to try you, but a jury of your peers is nonexistent since there’s two of you. Right to trial by jury nonexistent? Clearly some rights are provided as a duty by fellow citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/66 "2010-11-20T15:23:11Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Your mate thinks you’ve committed a crime, and wants to try you, but a jury of your peers is nonexistent since there’s two of you. Right to trial by jury nonexistent? > > Clearly some rights are provided as a duty by fellow citizens. I disagree. I don’t think there’s an inalienable right to a jury of your peers. We may like to describe it thusly, but it’s a wise public policy, and nothing more. If there is a right at this policy’s foundation, it’s the right not to be detained when you’ve offered no offense, your freedom to do as you’d like when you’ve harmed no one. That right exists, so when someone believes you’ve committed an offense, we take care not to proceed in an irresponsible manner. Like all rights, it is not considered absolute and it may conflict with another’s legitimate right. So, our social policy is that we only detain if there’s cause to do so, only do so in following an agreed-upon due process. But the policy we decided upon is just the one we liked best. You might just as well say someone has a right to a trial before the king. It speaks to the same concern and human right (just not as well, we think). But on the desert island, I still have the right to be left alone–and so does my mate, who may well have had his right infringed by some crime. Those conflicts require policies to sort them out, but they’re just policies and processes. They are practical necessities. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/67 "2010-11-20T15:33:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yes, but that’s hardly new. They’ve had something working against them since, well, last year, when Benedict issued _Caritas in Veritate_, where he said that a market economy based on self interest doesn’t work, that the government should make it a primary goal to decrease unemployment, and spoke out against patents on medical drugs and for protecting the environment. > > Or 1961 encyclical _Mater Et Magistra_\*, which said that it was a country’s moral duty to mandate a living wage, a progressive income tax system, government pension and large amounts of foreign aid paid by rich countries to equalize the global disparity of wealth. > > Or even earlier, 1931’s _Quadragesimo Anno_, when Pius Xi condemned unrestrained capitalism and called for redistribution of wealth when necessary to serve the public good. > > Or for that matter, 1891’s _Rerum Novarum_, where Leo XIII said that workers have the right to form unions and strike and be paid a living wage. Since at least 1891, the Catholic church has been speaking out against exploitation of workers and that states had a moral duty to care about the welfare of their citizens, and employers, their employees. As a right wing Catholic who grew up during the Cold War, I’d also add that the RCC as a whole was very, very supportive of Communism and its principles for most of the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/68 "2010-11-20T15:45:51Z")
> [@acetylene](#): > > Could you elaborate on this? I’m afraid Google is not my friend here. Many many times. I’ll point to one specific example which will serve to prove the point. In 1527 the armies of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V sacked Rome and bottled the Pope up in the Castel Sant’Angelo. While some of the troops were reportedly pro-Luther (his reform movement had just started a decade or so prior to this incident) many of them were of course devout Catholics–obvious since they were soldiers serving under the Holy Roman Emperor. Charles V himself was a devout Catholic, and while he may have not wanted the sack of Rome (Rome was arguably sacked primarily because the Emperor had failed to pay his soldiers so they demanded spoils), he **was** waging direct war against the papacy in the Italian peninsula, so it’s obvious he had no qualms about fighting directly against the papacy. Also during the “War of the Eight Saints”, the city of Florence was in direct armed conflict against the Papacy. There are actually tons of examples throughout history, up until the early 19th century the Pope was first and foremost a temporal prince, with secular designs and dynastic desires. There’s very little defense for the behavior and actions of most popes from the beginning of the middle ages up through the end of the renaissance. Although isolated Popes in that span were good and righteous men who held their office in good faith, they were the exception and not the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/69 "2010-11-20T15:51:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What kind of atoms are rights made of? How much space do they take up? As I say, they are an artifact of our culture. They have no existence without it. A tiger cornering you in a forest has no concept of your right to life. To the extent it exists, it needs to be enforced. What atoms are governments made of? Laws? Are you now arguing you only believe in things that have an easy physical representation? I’m honestly tired of playing devil’s advocate on this. My position has always been that humans really don’t have rights, not innate or government created. We have privileges under the law and we have protections under the law. How much of either is based on a host of things (cultural, political, legal, economic et al.) and there is nothing innate about any of it. However, I will say that I find it very odd someone like yourself who obviously believes very strongly in the concept of rights, believes they only exist as the creation of a government. To me that seems to be essentially the exact opposite of the entire history of the use of the word “rights.” I’ll say it again (but you’ve not really addressed it yet), you seem to be arguing a position in which a right only exists in the direct present tense, and only so long as you are actually able to exercise it without any infringements whatsoever. So in your world, if I kidnapped you then you’d say “you no longer had the right to liberty.” I find that highly strange. Essentially you seem to view rights as a “[state machine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_machine)” and not as a “legal protection” which is what most people view a right as. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/70 "2010-11-20T17:20:00Z")
Was this Pope’s decree followed by an announcement of a papal garage sale? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/71 "2010-11-20T17:25:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Was this Pope’s decree followed by an announcement of a papal garage sale? The employees of the Vatican are already guaranteed health care by the Italian National Health Service. ---
**Author:** ![rayman5321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@rayman5321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayman5321)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/72 "2010-11-20T17:53:06Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I think the pope would be well- served by boning up on his definition of “inalienable rights” Agreed! ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/73 "2010-11-20T18:01:01Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > But Republicans are all too willing to exploit the Pope’s influence on issues where they agree with him, like abortion, so what’s their take on this? Their take? Easy. An “inalienable right” is whatever right-wing Americans say it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/74 "2010-11-20T18:03:46Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I think the pope would be well- served by boning… Hey, don’t give him any ideas! ---
**Author:** ![acetylene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@acetylene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acetylene)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/75 "2010-11-20T18:56:42Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Many many times. > > \ > > Although isolated Popes in that span were good and righteous men who held their office in good faith, they were the exception and not the rule. Thank you. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/76 "2010-11-20T20:18:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The employees of the Vatican are already guaranteed health care by the Italian National Health Service. I was under the impression the Pope represented all Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/77 "2010-11-20T20:49:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hey, don’t give him any ideas! I think he _would_ be well served by boning…and keeping his nose out of government business. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/78 "2010-11-20T21:39:53Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I think he _would_ be well served by boning…and keeping his nose out of government business. I’m just worried about who the bonee might be. ---
**Author:** ![Turtledove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@Turtledove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turtledove)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/79 "2010-11-21T02:17:43Z")
The question of universal health care (UHC) should not be called a right. Other than public education which is necessary to keep tyrants at bay, our “rights” are really attempts to keep something from happening TO us…e.g. right to liberty is a “right” keeping others from doing things TO us…our “right” to happiness is our solution to our life choices…not others deciding FOR us. The right of religion is our choice…not someone else deciding for us, etc. ``` The "right" to health care would DEMAND that others must do something for us, to us or must help pay for our care. We have no such "right" to demand care from others or that others may DEMAND care from us (whether that be money, time or talent). I may choose to help others....but that MUST be MY choice. ``` ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262/80 "2010-11-21T03:02:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > As a right wing Catholic who grew up during the Cold War, I’d also add that **the RCC as a whole was very, very supportive of Communism and its principles for most of the 20th century**. 😕😕😕 Whaaaa… OK, I think I just felt a massive whoosh overhead, Martin may owe me, the whooshee, a new hat if he doesn’t explain that one… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-calls-health-care-an-inalienable-right-whats-the-right-wing-spin/561262.md?page=5)