# Pope changes one line in Lord's Prayer **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 5, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098 "2019-06-05T22:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/1 "2019-06-05T22:03:01Z")
Seems like a good change to me as a former Catholic [Pope Francis Approves Updated Translation of Lord's Prayer: 'Do Not Let Us Fall Into Temptation' | CBN News](https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2019/june/pope-francis-officially-approves-change-to-lords-prayer) ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/2 "2019-06-05T22:38:55Z")
For those who might be interested, but not enough to click through the links, the change is from “lead us not into temptation” to “do not let us fall into temptation”. According to some biblical scholars, the new translation better represents the meaning of the Latin version. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/3 "2019-06-05T23:03:16Z")
“…Et ne nos inducas in tentationem…” > [@](#): > > induco, inducere, induxi, inductus > > verb > > ``` > conjugation: 3rd conjugation > > ``` > > Definitions: > > ``` > induce, influence > introduce > lead in, bring in (performers) > > ``` To my 4-years-of-high-school-Latin eyes, that looks like “lead us not into temptation.” But I’m not the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/4 "2019-06-05T23:12:42Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > According to some biblical scholars, the new translation better represents the meaning of the Latin version. Hmm. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > "…Et ne nos inducas in tentationem…"To my 4-years-of-high-school-Latin eyes, that looks like “lead us not into temptation.” But I’m not the Pope. Yes, my non-infallible eyes tend to agree. I guess the philosophical question is whether there is any distinction between “leading” and “letting” for an omniscient and omnipotent God. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/5 "2019-06-05T23:13:39Z")
For comparative reference, that has been the wording in Spanish for longer than I’ve been alive. I suppose the idea is that you are asking the deity to help you resist the temptation, rather than it sounding in Modern English like the deity is the one placing you under the temptation. And come to think of it, the reference to original should be to the Koiné Greek in the Gospel texts, rather than to the Latin version, should it not? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/6 "2019-06-05T23:17:42Z")
Why would G-d lead us into temptation, anyway? I thought He outsourced that to S-t-n. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/7 "2019-06-05T23:21:07Z")
FWIW, here’s the [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer#Original_Greek_text_and_Vulgate_Latin_translation)entry on that phrase: > [@](#): > > Sixth Petition > > “And lead us not into temptation,” > See also: Matthew 6:13 > > Interpretations of the penultimate petition of the prayer—not to be led by God into peirasmos—vary considerably. The range of meanings of the Greek word “πειρασμός” (peirasmos) is illustrated in New Testament Greek lexicons.[47] In different contexts it can mean temptation, testing, trial, experiment. Although the traditional English translation uses the word “temptation” and Carl Jung saw God as actually leading people astray,[48] Christians generally interpret the petition as not contradicting James 1:13–14: “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God’, for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.” Some see the petition as an eschatological appeal against unfavourable Last Judgment, a theory supported by the use of the word “peirasmos” in this sense in Revelation 3:10. Others see it as a plea against hard tests described elsewhere in scripture, such as those of Job.[49] It is also read as: “Do not let us be led (by ourselves, by others, by Satan) into temptations”. Since it follows shortly after a plea for daily bread (i.e., material sustenance), it is also seen as referring to not being caught up in the material pleasures given. A similar phrase appears in Matthew 26:41 and Luke 22:40 in connection with the prayer of Jesus in Gethsemane.[50][51] > > Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in a translation of the Holy Bible which was not completed before his death, used this wording: “And suffer us not to be led into temptation”.[52] > > In a conversation on the Italian TV channel TV2000 on 6 December 2017, Pope Francis, commented that the Italian wording of this petition (which is similar to the English) was a poor translation and should be changed to “do not let us fall into temptation”. He explained: “I am the one who falls; it’s not him [God] pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen”.[53][54] The Anglican theologian Ian Paul has highlighted how such a proposal is “stepping into a theological debate about the nature of evil”.[55] On June 3, 2019, Pope Francis approved changes to the Italian translation of the sixth petition, replacing “and lead us not into temptation” with “do not let us fall into temptation.”[56] The changes, which had previously been approved on 22 May 2019 by the General Assembly of the Episcopal Conference of Italy,[56] are part of the third edition of the Roman Missal.[56] Maybe someone who knows Greek can look at Wikipedia and offer their interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/8 "2019-06-05T23:22:32Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Why would G-d lead us into temptation, anyway? I thought He outsourced that to S-t-n. Well, I think that’s rather the point of the change, isn’t it. But it seems to me to be wishful thinking on the part of “some biblical scholars” that letting rather than leading is what the Latin actually means. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/9 "2019-06-05T23:30:44Z")
It’s interesting that Psalm 23, generally recited on Shabbat, is thematically exceptionally similar to the Lord’s Prayer, with the exception of that line. > **[Psalm 23](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_23)** > > Psalm 23 is the 23rd psalm of the Book of Psalms, beginning in English in the King James Version: "The Lord is my shepherd". In Latin, it is known by the incipit, "Dominus reget me". The Book of Psalms is part of the third section of the Hebrew Bible, and a book of the Christian Old Testament. In the slightly different numbering system used in the Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate translations of the Bible, this psalm is Psalm 22. > Like many psalms, Psalm 23 is used in both Jewish and Christian ... ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/10 "2019-06-05T23:32:46Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Well, I think that’s rather the point of the change, isn’t it. But it seems to me to be wishful thinking on the part of “some biblical scholars” that letting rather than leading is what the Latin actually means. But it wasn’t originally in Latin. Latin was translated from Greek, which the evangelists wrote in as they transcribed Jesus’ Aramaic. Bible study can be like a game of Telephone. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/11 "2019-06-05T23:39:53Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But it wasn’t originally in Latin. Latin was translated from Greek, which the evangelists wrote in as they transcribed Jesus’ Aramaic. From memory, or from secondhand recountings, decades later. Game of Telephone indeed (just ask the cheesemakers…). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/12 "2019-06-05T23:48:20Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Why would G-d lead us into temptation, anyway? I thought He outsourced that to S-t-n. Or possibly to ----, --------- or ----- — -----------. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/13 "2019-06-06T00:22:40Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But it wasn’t originally in Latin. Latin was translated from Greek, which the evangelists wrote in as they transcribed Jesus’ Aramaic. Bible study can be like a game of Telephone. From the OP’s linked article: > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church is using the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible to try to determine the best phrasing. IANAC, so I don’t know exactly how “infallible” the Roman Catholic Church treats the Vulgate; but “the Latin says this” carries more weight with them than it would with a Protestant. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/14 "2019-06-06T01:14:59Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > From the OP’s linked article:IANAC, so I don’t know exactly how “infallible” the Roman Catholic Church treats the Vulgate; but “the Latin says this” carries more weight with them than it would with a Protestant. [“Papal Infallibility”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility) only applies to doctrinal matters in VERY limited cases, and this is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/15 "2019-06-06T01:30:27Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > From the OP’s linked article:IANAC, so I don’t know exactly how “infallible” the Roman Catholic Church treats the Vulgate; but “the Latin says this” carries more weight with them than it would with a Protestant. Why in the world would you think this is true? Catholics are well aware the Latin was translated from the Greek. My parish priest was fluent in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew and knew a lot of Aramaic, and he often explained how the meaning of certain passages got altered in each of the translations. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/16 "2019-06-06T01:39:44Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Why in the world would you think this is true? Partly because of the sentence I quoted: “The Catholic Church is using the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible to try to determine the best phrasing.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/17 "2019-06-06T01:42:54Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > [“Papal Infallibility”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility) only applies to doctrinal matters in VERY limited cases, and this is not one of them. Yeah, I know. I put the word “infallible” in quotes because I was using it very loosely (and certainly not in its literal or technical sense); but even so, it probably wasn’t the right word. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/18 "2019-06-06T01:47:31Z")
It sounds to me like the entire line is being taken out of context. “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” In other words, {Please be a just and merciful God and} lead us not into temptation, but {as a just and merciful God would do} deliver us from evil. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/19 "2019-06-06T01:58:05Z")
This proves the church just is getting too liberal for me. First this, then women priests, then lions lying down with lambs. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098/20 "2019-06-06T03:46:45Z")
I last went to a Mass for my grandmother’s funeral several years ago. I hadn’t been to one in many many years. A few of the passages that I knew by heart from when I was forced to go had been changed very slightly, some of them into less idiomatic English that I knew was because they were closer to direct Latin translations. The most hideous is the change from Priest: “Lord be with you”; Response: “And also with you” to Response: “And with your spirit”. That is literally what the response was in Latin (Et cum spiritu tuo, which my mother said was the only thing she remembered back from when all Mass was said in Latin) but, I don’t know, maybe it was just growing up with the original translation, it just sounds a whole lot more natural. This is like the exact opposite. The old wording of the Lord’s prayer was seemingly stilted language where everyone knew what it meant, but the construction was not really used elsewhere. Very few people say these days things like “Touch me not!” as opposed to “Don’t touch me!” (Or “Noli me tangere”). I suppose the bigger change though is making it sound like the Lord must be asked to not lead us into temptation actively and prefer that he merely not let it happen to us passively, which is more in line with contemporary thought with regard to Free Will or whatever. Actively requesting that God not tempt us feels much more Old Testament. Obviously the prayer is part of the New Testament and English wasn’t around when it was being written so who really knows, but it certainly sounds better to me. I wouldn’t be surprised if the prior change I mentioned was pushed by Palapati… er …Benedict while the more recent one is by the current Pope, but the current Pope is not a particularly great English speaker, so unless they are doing the same sort of change to Spanish (which reportedly already was that way, I guess?) it seems odd. Maybe the Pope was learning more English and realized that the English Lord’s Prayer was significantly different in that line than his native Spanish. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-changes-one-line-in-lords-prayer/835098.md?page=2)