# Pope decides entire Enlightenment was a bad idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569 "2005-02-23T18:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/21 "2005-02-23T20:33:02Z")
Hello, member of the Ideology of Evil[sup]TM[/sup] checking in. Our [“attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man”](http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/02/022205pope.htm) were progressing wonderfully until this book came out. We would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for this meddling pope! Seriously, though, what is going to gain by a book that makes him sound like more of an extremist asshole than we already knew he was? Most liberal Catholics I meet now either distance themselves from the pope immediately, or half-apologize for being Catholic. They’re not going to change their mind over something like this – they’re far more likely to leave. And the conservatives are already conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/22 "2005-02-23T20:50:40Z")
The Pope is an old, old man and head of irrelevant organisation that’s losing any hold it used to have on people’s lives. Naturally he’s going to be bitter, but why does anyone listen to him or care? ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/23 "2005-02-23T21:07:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > To be fair, a lot of Catholics don’t always take everything the Pope says to heart. My own family, for example, while very devout, were never one for the nitty-gritty details and rules. [John Mahoney in _She’s The One_] Just because I don’t believe in God doesn’t mean I’m not a good Catholic! [/JMiSTO] ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/24 "2005-02-23T21:11:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > To be fair, a lot of Catholics don’t always take everything the Pope says to heart. My own family, for example, while very devout, were never one for the nitty-gritty details and rules. I try to be respectful of other people’s beliefs and values but when something like this comes along (equating equality under the law with evil) I can only shake my head and walk away in disgust. What little respect I had for the Roman Catholic church just went down the drain with this revelation. Most individual RC’s are fine, but, IMNSHO, the institution is rotten to the core. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/25 "2005-02-23T21:20:07Z")
Just wanted to throw this one on the pile… From [here](http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=62512): > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Javier Cardinal Lozano Barragán: > “I would like to emphasise his [the Pope’s] thinking as regards the immunodeficiency of moral and spiritual values…\ > …the Holy Father emphasises that the drama of AIDS is a ‘pathology of the spirit’” You know, I read this quote in a Spanish newspaper last year, and I am still speechless. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/26 "2005-02-23T21:22:44Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > I try to be respectful of other people’s beliefs and values but when something like this comes along (equating equality under the law with evil) I can only shake my head and walk away in disgust. What little respect I had for the Roman Catholic church just went down the drain with this revelation. Most individual RC’s are fine, but, IMNSHO, the institution is rotten to the core. Yep. thanks for saying it so much better than I could. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/27 "2005-02-23T21:29:28Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > Most individual RC’s are fine, but, IMNSHO, the institution is rotten to the core. Well, lest we become as annoying to some as the Pontiff, it must be acknowledged that the Roman Church _is_ all of its individual members. There is this problem of hierachy and the authority it carries, but the Church is a pretty complex organization, and defies reduction into a simple pyramid. That said, I don’t understand why so many Catholics cling to the faith while rejecting just about everything that makes it unique among Christian sects. If you can’t even agree to disagree with the Pope, or utterly reject the idea he has any authority, I don’t see what having his underlings excommunicate you is going to matter in the grand scheme of worhip according to your own principles. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/28 "2005-02-23T21:31:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > give me John XXIII anyday! I’m getting to the point where I prefer the [dead ones](http://home.twcny.rr.com/thesharrows/pictures/john_XXIII.jpg). They have a tendancy to keep their mouths shut. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/29 "2005-02-23T21:31:47Z")
Oh, I’m not implying that what the Pope is saying NOW is insignificant, or that it’s just detail. I was pointing out that not everyone takes everything he says at face value. They’re still Catholics because they believe in the religion, but not in the Pope. Tradition be damned, the guy needs to step down. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/30 "2005-02-23T21:46:59Z")
It’s natural that the Pope would be against gay marriage. It would cut down the talent pool for the priesthood. Married guys aren’t eligible, you see. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/31 "2005-02-23T21:49:32Z")
Hasn’t pretty much every pope been against the Enlightnment since the Enlightenment happened? The enlightenment worldview is of a secular, democratic society, where truth is consensus-based and power comes from the people. The Catholic worldview is of a religious, autocratic society, where truth is absolute and power comes from God. There’s a pretty basic contradiction there. And, in all honesty, who does this surprise? Is there anyone who, before hearing about this, thought that the Catholic church was ok with abortion and gay rights? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/32 "2005-02-23T21:58:30Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Well, lest we become as annoying to some as the Pontiff, it must be acknowledged that the Roman Church _is_ all of its individual members. There is this problem of hierachy and the authority it carries, but the Church is a pretty complex organization, and defies reduction into a simple pyramid. I see your point. I was simply saying that I will treat individual RCs as good people until they demonstrate otherwise. There are many RCs here that I respect and will continue to respect despite the idiotic pontifications of their religious institution. I wonder how much longer the RCC or even Christianity in general while survive. With the problems the Anglicans and the Greek Orthodox are having, are the institutions of Christianity collapsing in upon themselves as they fossilize themselves out of existence? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/33 "2005-02-23T21:58:51Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Hasn’t pretty much every pope been against the Enlightnment since the Enlightenment happened? The enlightenment worldview is of a secular, democratic society, where truth is consensus-based and power comes from the people. > > The Catholic worldview is of a religious, autocratic society, where truth is absolute and power comes from God. There’s a pretty basic contradiction there. > > And, in all honesty, who does this surprise? Is there anyone who, before hearing about this, thought that the Catholic church was ok with abortion and gay rights? Nobody is surprised by the general attitude, but based on the citations in the review, he now seems to be associating individual rights, gay marriage, abortion, contraception, and divorce are symptomatic of a society sinking into amoral, totalitarian(!) permissiveness. He also reminded the reader that Hitler came to power via a democratic election, and then the German Parliament gave him dictatorial powers. It’s not even strictly true, but the point was that we can go equally wrong in our democracies today. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/34 "2005-02-23T22:00:03Z")
Just wanted to mention,too, that NPR usually keeps its links up forever, so the link in my OP should be good anytime. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/35 "2005-02-23T22:04:21Z")
Yeah, but he’s just restating an old argument…that the calls for individual rights are leading to people claiming that people need to respect their rights to act immorally (as he sees it). ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/36 "2005-02-23T22:36:43Z")
I found [www.straightgoods.ca/ViewFeature5.cfm%3FREF%3D65+pope+gay+rights+vatican&hl=en]this]([http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:uMv4dbi7yowJ:](http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:uMv4dbi7yowJ:)[url) article on Catholics and Gay Rights and here’s a snippet. It’s kinda beautiful/sad. > [@](#): > > Moral theology has moved beyond “Act centred” towards a more “person centred” approach where the over-riding Jesus ethic of love trumps everything. If grace builds on nature, might we not say same-sex, loving and committed relationships and the sexual expression thereof can be holy and may even be sacramental? All of us recognize many such gay relationships. We might argue that heterosexual marriage, with its openness to children, does indeed carry a deeper symbolic import, but in no way does this argue against same sex relationships. > > In 1977, a report commissioned by the Catholic Theological Society of America basically stated this. The theologians said they “were presenting their work in the spirit of the Second Vatican Council to help beleaguered teachers and pastors.” They affirmed homosexual acts as moral within a committed framework. They said: “Homosexuals have the same rights to love, intimacy and relationships as heterosexuals … the norms governing the morality of homosexual activity are those which govern all sexual activity, and the norms governing sexual activity are those that govern all human sexual activity. Are homosexuals by reason of their condition, denied by God and nature the right enjoyed by heterosexuals to the intimate sexual expression of love?” The commission’s findings were widely received by mainline theologians, while being criticized by Rome. > > Two years later John Paul ll became pope, and moral theology came to a standstill. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/37 "2005-02-23T22:39:24Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > I try to be respectful of other people’s beliefs and values but when something like this comes along (equating equality under the law with evil) I can only shake my head and walk away in disgust. What little respect I had for the Roman Catholic church just went down the drain with this revelation. Most individual RC’s are fine, but, IMNSHO, the institution is rotten to the core. _I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment._ **Malcolm X** ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/38 "2005-02-23T22:41:15Z")
That’s a nice link. Here we go again: [LINK](http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:uMv4dbi7yowJ:www.straightgoods.ca/ViewFeature5.cfm%3FREF%3D65+pope+gay+rights+vatican&hl=en) ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/39 "2005-02-23T23:39:49Z")
What do you expect the Pope to say? “Why yes, I think it’s wonderful that people are slowly drifting away from our religion due to its lack of grounding in both observable reality and science! We used to have a grip over virtually every aspect of Westerners lives, but now that that whole lovely Enlightenment thing is over, it’s alleviated us of that whole burden of power and influence thing! Now that I’m almost out of a job, do you think Wal-Mart might hire me as a greeter and I’d get to wear one of those smashing blue vests instead of this stupid hat?” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/40 "2005-02-23T23:43:00Z")
> [@jinwicked](#): > > What do you expect the Pope to say? > > “Why yes, I think it’s wonderful that people are slowly drifting away from our religion due to its lack of grounding in both observable reality and science! We used to have a grip over virtually every aspect of Westerners lives, but now that that whole lovely Enlightenment thing is over, it’s alleviated us of that whole burden of power and influence thing! Now that I’m almost out of a job, do you think Wal-Mart might hire me as a greeter and I’d get to wear one of those smashing blue vests instead of this stupid hat?” Something like that, why not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569.md?page=3)