# Pope decides entire Enlightenment was a bad idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569 "2005-02-23T18:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/41 "2005-02-23T23:49:40Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > I wonder how much longer the RCC or even Christianity in general [will] survive. With the problems the Anglicans and the Greek Orthodox are having, are the institutions of Christianity collapsing in upon themselves as they fossilize themselves out of existence? Don’t know. Scriptural literalism and conservatism seem to play differently to different markets. The RC Church in Latin America, for instance, is a different animal than in the US. There’s an interesting trend in the Southern US right now, with a resurgence in more conservative Catholic ethics, driven in no small part by the increase in the Latino population. Overlooking this trend may have proven fatal, for instance, in John Kerry’s bid to win Florida, as he may have taken for granted the Latino vote. Sure, there is the anti-Castro bloc, but just as significant have been Latinos indifferent to the Castro regime, and ambivalent about Republicans, given their anti-immigrant rhetoric. But throw “values” issues like gay marriage and abortion into the mix, and suddenly the dynamic can change, if one is willing to exploit those issues. A lot of Latino Catholics voted for Bush, more than in the last election (excepting the anti-Castro Cubans, again). I don’t think the Elian Gonzalez incident can account completely for the change in trend. So, will JPII’s words erode Catholicism in the US, or focus it in a different, growing demographic? Need a swing to conservatism lead to a post-Christian society like Western Europe? I don’t think anyone knows. A [cite](http://www.beliefnet.com/story/155/story_15598.html) for the above. The salient quote: > [@](#): > > In Florida, Catholics made up 26% of the electorate in 2000. This year, they made up 28%. In 2000, 54% of Catholics went for Bush; in 2004, 57% of them voted for him. The combination of those two factors meant a gain of 400,000 voters in the Sunshine State—about Bush’s margin of victory. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/42 "2005-02-24T01:23:35Z")
I guess I’ll withhold judgement until I read the book. ---
**Author:** ![todd33rpm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@todd33rpm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/todd33rpm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/43 "2005-02-24T11:15:19Z")
Update: [Pope has relapse of the flu and goes back into the hospital for “specialist treatment”](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/24/pope/index.html) as he’s having breathing difficulty. If I have time, I’ll post details in [this thread in MPSIMS](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5878439#post5878439) as I get them. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/44 "2005-02-24T12:49:37Z")
So you are surprised that the Pope is against an ideology that focus on the rational instead of the spiritual and were moral values were replaced by dividends? With all it’s fallings the Roman Catholic Church is the only organazation that sing in a different tune in this godforsaken place. It’s funny we Latin Americans see the Church in a different light than North Americans. Of course most of us are catholics but nonetheless, we think that it has done a lot more good than bad. For example, (in recent history), not so long ago, (1978), the Church alone prevented a fratricide war between Argentina and Chile, a few laters after the Malvina´s war when the militars were in their way out, a Pope, JPII, arrived for the first time to Argentina to bring a message of peace.- He is an old man, with old ideas. I believe that the church has to review it’s policy regarding gays and contraception, (I am against abortion). And you know what? the Church will change, it will take time but the church always adapt and survives.- JPII is not the fundamentalist idiotic bigot most of you claim. Compared with bin laden or Bush he is a hippie. He is also a very inteligent man and his critics against enlightenment from the philosophical, (read Fides et Ratio), to the practical, deserves to be at least discussed in Great Debates.- Ours is an hedonistic culture. We value the material and disregard the spiritual, success is measured in dollars and yet most of humanity is as uneducated an hungry, (or worst), than in the Dark Ages. Of course when you see things from the top, the picture may be different. From where I stand I often think that at least people who lived in the Middle Ages had the hope of an afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/45 "2005-02-24T12:51:34Z")
Look, this book was probably written decades ago…why the Pope’s staff chose to release it now is a bit of a mystery. Let’s just say that an 84-year old man isn’t likely to be doing any heavy writing. That aside, the Enlightenment wasn’t all good…look at the evils that came from Marx and Hegel (although these men never conceived of what their ideas led to). Is the book actually all that reactionary?I haven’t read it, so i can’t comment. But, I’m sure this work was heavily edited from very old writings of the pope, so it contains a lot of dated ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/46 "2005-02-24T14:40:05Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Now, under the subtle guise of advancing democracy, we spread the evils of permissiveness, contraception, divorce, and abortion. Now, where else have we heard such views of democracy…? > [@Abu Musab al-Zarqawi](#): > > We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/47 "2005-02-24T16:59:40Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > That aside, the Enlightenment wasn’t all good…look at the evils that came from Marx and Hegel (although these men never conceived of what their ideas led to). Is the book actually all that reactionary?I haven’t read it, so i can’t comment. It is true that flawed political movements may have been rooted in ideas that were formed in the Enlightenment, but I think most people would prefer to view those as perversions or exaggerations of the underlying concepts. Sure, the primacy of humanism may underly the atheist line of communism, but by exalting the state over the individual, communism belies the humanist emphasis on the worth of the individual, and of individual liberty. Similar things could probably be said about fascism. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/48 "2005-02-24T18:34:35Z")
Not to mention the personality cults fostered by individuals like Stalin and Mao that morphed into virtual state religion. Any connection between the historical incarnations of Communist totalitarianism and the principles normally ascribed to secular humanism are tenuous at best, and utterly specious in most instances. Will we ever be rid of this absurd association (e.g. “See! The Communists were evil, _and_ secular!”)? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/49 "2005-02-25T00:35:47Z")
**Loopydude:** \*Need a swing to conservatism lead to a post-Christian society like Western Europe? \* I have never understood why Western Europe is so often called “post-Christian”. Admittedly, only a minority of their populations attend church services regularly, but heck, the percentage of Americans who are regular churchgoers may be [as low as 26%](http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/church1.htm), and is almost certainly under 40%. And even this [article](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_155/ai_n6143340) (which generally deplores Europeans’ relatively lukewarm Christianity) admits, > [@](#): > > True, few Europeans proclaim outright atheism, and a majority still call themselves Christians. Only a little over [three-quarters](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm) of Americans still call themselves Christians, as of 2001. If a “majority” of Western Europeans still call themselves Christians, and 3/4 of Americans do, then what makes us a “Christian society” and them a “post-Christian” one? That extra one-quarter of the US population that calls itself Christian? The extra ten to twenty percent that attends church regularly? I’m surprised that that’s considered enough to provoke such a sharp binary distinction between “Christian” and “post-Christian”. Heck, a number of Western European countries still have Christian denominations as their official established churches. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/50 "2005-02-25T00:57:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **Loopydude:** \*Need a swing to conservatism lead to a post-Christian society like Western Europe? \* > > I have never understood why Western Europe is so often called “post-Christian”. Why don’t you ask [Doc Dobson](http://www.family.org/resources/itempg.cfm?itemid=4188&refcd=CE05XSIRC&tvar=n). It’s not like I invented the term. The Christian Democrats are pretty well secularized these days as well. Besides, their environmental policies and stance on socialization would give Republicans hives. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/51 "2005-02-25T01:12:01Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Why don’t you ask [Doc Dobson](http://www.family.org/resources/itempg.cfm?itemid=4188&refcd=CE05XSIRC&tvar=n). It’s not like I invented the term. > > The Christian Democrats are pretty well secularized these days as well. Besides, their environmental policies and stance on socialization would give Republicans hives. I asked about the existence of “Christian” major political parties in Europe, and one of our members from that side of the water explained that when these parties were named, it was more to emphasize the inclusion of both Protestants and Catholics than it was to suggest Christian religiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/52 "2005-02-25T01:15:44Z")
Well, at least in some countries, they also identified mostly with Catholic ideals, and followed the Pope’s lead rather closely. The main thrust was anti-Communist. They’ve come to be more socialist, green, and most certainly don’t expect members to toe the line on abortion, etc. They’re well left of our right, but still thought of as a relatively “conservative” movement. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/53 "2005-02-25T17:33:15Z")
The conservative / staunchly pro-catholic [Wm F Buckley says](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=128&e=1&u=/ucwb/20050209/cm_ucwb/deathforthepope) > [@](#): > > (I) was asked to pray for the recovery of the pope. I have abstained from doing so. I hope that he will not recover. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/54 "2005-02-25T22:38:30Z")
Again, John Paul II has lived through the worst periods of human history-the rise of German Fascism, and Stalinist Communism. You can’t blame him for being a bit critical of the human capacity for evil. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/55 "2005-02-26T04:31:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I have never understood why Western Europe is so often called “post-Christian”. I’d think it’s articles like [this](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2326&e=17&u=/csm/oreligionpageonex) that promote the idea. Whether it’s accurate or not, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/56 "2005-02-26T04:51:04Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > The conservative / staunchly pro-catholic [Wm F Buckley says](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=128&e=1&u=/ucwb/20050209/cm_ucwb/deathforthepope) I think you’re taking the quote out of context. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/57 "2005-02-26T08:53:24Z")
Hah! _He_ can talk! Oh, wait. No, he can’t. Hah! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569/58 "2005-03-01T12:43:36Z")
It’s just sort of sad that this guy, who probably did more to defeat Communism than seven Reagans, and who in many ways reformed the church for the better, has to go out on such a tirade of backwards nastiness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-decides-entire-enlightenment-was-a-bad-idea/291569.md?page=2)