# Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072 "2013-05-22T22:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/21 "2013-05-23T06:11:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As a joke this sort of thing is fine… > > It’s a pet peeve of mine to see people take on part of a mythology but not all of it. If Hell is real, you don’t want to go there, by definition. You had better find a new pet peeve then, mate. _Everybody_ that makes these kind of jokes, and they are jokes, doesn’t believe in hell. Do you really think there are people that don’t believe in god or that Jezus was the messiah or heaven and all the other crap, but they do believe the bit about hell is real? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/22 "2013-05-23T06:43:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As a joke this sort of thing is fine. But as there was already a better joke upthread, I have to check something. You do realize that, in their mythology, Hell is a place of torment, right? This sort of thing is like saying you are going to jump into a bonfire and have a party with your friends. You’re going to be too busy burning to do anything else. > > It’s a pet peeve of mine to see people take on part of a mythology but not all of it. If Hell is real, you don’t want to go there, by definition. When I was young, an impressive and unworldly Christian Monk spoke in Religious Education Lessons about hell. He described hell as eternal separation from God- dreadful for a believer and not for a non-believer. I am not a believer but remain impressed by the spirituality of many people using their faith as a basis for morality. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/23 "2013-05-23T08:16:07Z")
So if I, as a convinced atheist who does good deeds, am totally wrong about the universe and Pope Francis’ boss actually exists, what does redemption mean for me personally? ---
**Author:** ![Keithvdw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@Keithvdw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keithvdw)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/24 "2013-05-23T09:21:08Z")
> [@naita](#): > > So if I, as a convinced atheist who does good deeds, am totally wrong about the universe and Pope Francis’ boss actually exists, what does redemption mean for me personally? Well, I would say best case scenario is that if you die, and are presented with evidence of God and Jesus and such in the afterlife, that you then accept them, and you are given the chance to do so at that point because you led a just life. I don’t believe in a sentient, conscious God or Jesus as an immortal savior, but I more or less hold to the same ideals that are outlined by Jesus in the New Testament. If at some point in my life or afterlife, I found myself in the presence of God, or Jesus, or other supernatural beings, I certainly would not reject their presence. That isn’t faith, because I’m basically requiring proof to believe, and if you can prove something you don’t need to have faith it exists. But I wouldn’t reject proof just out of arrogance. Of course, the key would be knowing what constituted proof and not what just constituted a psychotic break or somesuch. Regardless of exactly how the new Pope meant this, it is certainly a much more helpful viewpoint to approach interacting with people of other faiths. Saying “you better believe or you will be damned” is basically trying to win an argument by fear - even if it turns out to be true - and many people (myself included) will instinctively oppose something presented to them as a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/25 "2013-05-23T10:19:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s a pet peeve of mine to see people take on part of a mythology but not all of it. What a ridiculous pet peeve. There’s nothing sacred about mythology, and no reason why someone should have to eat the whole thing if they take a nibble. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/26 "2013-05-23T10:57:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You do realize that, in their mythology, Hell is a place of torment, right? This sort of thing is like saying you are going to jump into a bonfire and have a party with your friends. You’re going to be too busy burning to do anything else. [“Heaven for climate, Hell for company.”](http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/07/19/heaven-for-climate/) If either is fictional, I’m not worried. But I’m packing my asbestos suit, just in case. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/27 "2013-05-23T12:32:38Z")
So, if I understand correctly, now that atheists can go to heaven, the only people left that are going to hell are the protestants. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/28 "2013-05-23T12:36:21Z")
Isn’t that nice. I’m invited to the play tea party! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/29 "2013-05-23T13:03:43Z")
The RCC’s modern position IIRC is that Christ’s salvation is offered to the whole of humanity, whatever their current faith status, and people of good will who seek righteousness and love their neighbor are actually being drawn, even if inadvertently, to Christ, whose Mystical Body on Earth is the Church – and unlike Jack Chick, the RCC does not claim that seeking righteousness and loving your neighbor without adopting the exact form of devotion will count for naught. Says Ratzinger (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Dominus Iesus”, 2000): _“for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.”_ You are all Catholics and you don’t know it 😃 > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? > > I thought this was dogma among all Christians (at least officially…I know individuals will have differing opinions about this). Catholicism AIUI has for a long time accepted that much of Scripture is symbolic/allegorical and subject to interpretation, preferrably by a trained professional. Inerrant _in ultimate moral teaching_ – if you can figure out what IS the ultimate moral teaching in the story – but not factually literal to every last word. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/30 "2013-05-23T13:15:23Z")
Isn’t that nice of the Pope. In the same spirit, I’d like to announce right now that if the Pope is really good in life, when he dies he will be allowed to go to the same place as me - oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/31 "2013-05-23T13:20:49Z")
I appreciate the thought, if not the theology. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/32 "2013-05-23T13:22:20Z")
Yeah, I’m not seeing anything new here. I think most of you guys just don’t understand Catholic doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/33 "2013-05-23T13:40:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? > > I thought this was dogma among all Christians (at least officially…I know individuals will have differing opinions about this). What rock have you been under? Biblical literalism isn’t a pan-Christian doctrine at all, and if anything, is specifically NOT one. Most denominations aren’t literalists, with only the ones from the Baptist/Evangelical derivations having this belief. Most of the other mainstream ones(Catholic, Episcopalian/Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc…) are specifically not literalist. Their beliefs are ones that look to the Bible as a source of information, but not ones that believe the literal words printed on the page as being inerrant and literal. Hell, I got taught the theory of evolution by a Jesuit priest, and had explained as absolute fact, not as some sort of counterpoint to intelligent design or anything like that. It sounds like maybe Pope Francis is an adherent to the doctrine of “anonymous Christianity”, which is a concept developed by Fr. Karl Rahner, SJ that basically states that people who are either unexposed to Christ, or who are exposed to Christ ineffectively can still be saved if they live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings. > **[Anonymous Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian)** > > Anonymous Christian is the controversial Christian doctrine concerning the fate of the unlearned which was introduced by the Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner (1904–1984) that declares that all individuals, who sincerely seek truth and goodness, and strive to follow the moral truths they know, can respond positively to God's grace, albeit unknowingly or indirectly, even if they do so through other religious traditions and/or are not explicitly aware of Jesus Christ. In other words, God's grace, inclu... Note- this isn’t quite like that posthumous Mormon baptism or whatever; Fr. Rahner was more explaining a philosophical basis for people who never heard of Christ to not be damned to Hell, in essence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/34 "2013-05-23T14:37:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I’m not seeing anything new here. I think most of you guys just don’t understand Catholic doctrine. I could be wrong, but he seems to have emphasized this doctrine more than recent popes have, especially regarding atheists. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/35 "2013-05-23T14:40:01Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > It is radical, or have you already forgotten the pro child rapist Pope Rat I’m not aware of any person named Pope Rat and I don’t grok how anything that you posted is supposed to serve as evidence that what Pope Francis said is radical. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus? What you linked to would seem to confirm that what Pope Francis said is not radical, if it’s accurate. (Always doubtful with Wikipedia) The question of why anyone would consider this radical thus remains. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/36 "2013-05-23T14:43:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What a weird headline: he said several things that would’ve made for a decent headline, and they tried to sum them up (I guess) by combining them into something he didn’t say. He said Jesus redeemed everybody, which is nothing new, And here I thought you had to seek salvation and be forgiven for your sins. To think, all this time Catholics have been doing this the hard way. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/37 "2013-05-23T14:45:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I’m not seeing anything new here. I think most of you guys just don’t understand Catholic doctrine. I am optimistic that the Pope’s comments will soften the stances of some particularly hard-core Catholics, like my mother, who believe that atheists are essentially evil people who are destined for Hell. I have no idea how much in keeping with Catholic doctrine that belief of hers is. Maybe not at all. But with the Pope himself saying, look, atheists are okay, and they can be saved too, maybe she and others like her will be more tolerant of their godless friends and relatives. I mean, personally speaking I don’t really give a crap if the Pope thinks I can be saved or not, but if it means less hostility towards atheists from the religious, then I am _all for it_. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/38 "2013-05-23T15:24:43Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > To think, all this time Catholics have been doing this the hard way. On the contrary. It’s the slackers now who will have the hard time later… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/39 "2013-05-23T15:26:29Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What rock have you been under? Biblical literalism isn’t a pan-Christian doctrine at all, and if anything, is specifically NOT one. I said nothing about literalism. Some tenets are adhered to strongly by this or that branch of Christianity without buying the whole book as the literal word of god. To hold that the only way to heaven is via Jesus does not (necessarily) mean someone is a literalist. They just buy that particular part. I thought the Catholic church held to this particular view and it was a central tenet of Christianity as a whole. Others above have educated me differently. Glad I asked. Learned something. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/40 "2013-05-23T15:59:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > To hold that the only way to heaven is via Jesus does not (necessarily) mean someone is a literalist. I think that part’s universal or nearly so among Christians. What’s not so universal is the non-literalist belief that the only way you can get to heaven is by coming to a belief in Jesus’s divinity during this lifetime. It’s a non-literalist interpretation because it’s getting more specific than John 14:6 in a couple of different ways. (Yeah, I know, it’s largely self-proclaimed literalists and inerrantists who buy into this interpretation. I never said they were consistent. :)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=3)