# Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072 "2013-05-22T22:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/61 "2013-05-24T01:37:39Z")
It’s interesting to see the ignorance that people show towards the Catholic faith and other more liberal Christian views. The example of a Jesuit priest teaching evolution may come as a shock to some people but he reality is that most Christians, Jews, Muslims etc are fairly liberal and don’t take the texts as literal. I hope this thread continues so that people’s ignorance is fought. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/62 "2013-05-24T03:30:13Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > I’ve sporadically been trying to correct people’s misconceptions and ignorance on the RCC’s doctrines since I signed up here. It’s taking longer than I thought. Like the Immaculate Conception. (Taking every chance I can get to fight ignorance on that one.) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/63 "2013-05-24T04:20:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The statement is not aimed at those outside the church, (who very likely share the views of **Left Hand of Dorkness** or **miss elizabeth** ), but at Catholics, to remind them both that they need to avoid sanctimoniously thinking that they are in some way superior and also that it is important to maintain both dialogue and cooperation with those whose beliefs we do not share. Don’t they have a Catholics-only internet where he could have mentioned it? It’s not like we non-Catholics needed to know his opinion about it… 😃 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/64 "2013-05-24T06:01:55Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > [“Heaven for climate, Hell for company.”](http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/07/19/heaven-for-climate/) > > If either is fictional, I’m not worried. But I’m packing my asbestos suit, just in case. 🙂 [Hell is not Disneyland!](http://www.theonion.com/articles/youth-pastor-forced-to-break-out-hell-is-not-disne,1403/) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/65 "2013-05-24T06:04:24Z")
Seems to be basically Catholic version of Common grace: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common\_grace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_grace) ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/66 "2013-05-24T14:53:36Z")
I’m not a Catholic, but this story seems quite sensationalized for what really isn’t all that different. Particularly given the scripture that he quotes, it seems that he’s mainly targetting Catholics, and to some extent other Christians, to not be hypocritical and to not put themselves above others. Everyone is capable of doing good work, and we should all recognize and respect that and use it as a means to connect with eachother and work together. After all, if God created all of us in his image, the innate desire to do good is in all of us, theist and atheist alike. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/67 "2013-05-24T16:35:39Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Like the Immaculate Conception. (Taking every chance I can get to fight ignorance on that one.) I prefer the Doctrine of the Immaculate Reception, which states that Jack Tatum did indeed touch the football. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/68 "2013-05-24T16:38:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I prefer the Doctrine of the Immaculate Reception, which states that Jack Tatum did indeed touch the football. 😃 🙂 But again, the analogy perpetuates the ignorance about what the Immaculate Conception refers to. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/69 "2013-05-25T18:23:51Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > It’s interesting to see the ignorance that people show towards the Catholic faith and other more liberal Christian views. The example of a Jesuit priest teaching evolution may come as a shock to some people but he reality is that most Christians, Jews, Muslims etc are fairly liberal and don’t take the texts as literal. > > I hope this thread continues so that people’s ignorance is fought. The Catholic faith is hardly “liberal”. Sure, they don’t deny the fact of evolution, but that merely elevates them above bat-shit crazy. Also, it’s been shown in studies that atheists are more informed about religion than even the adherents. Perhaps that will temper your sanctimonious concern. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/70 "2013-05-26T05:14:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Bad on the pope for promulgating woo. Well, it \*is \*his day job… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/71 "2013-05-26T17:41:14Z")
What happens if you are an atheist who leads a good life, but you actively oppose the Catholic Church, for (e.g.) its policies regarding contraception, and its protection of pedophiles? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/72 "2013-05-26T18:00:47Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > What happens if you are an atheist who leads a good life, but you actively oppose the Catholic Church, for (e.g.) its policies regarding contraception, and its protection of pedophiles? You go to heaven, but when you get there Jesus punches you in the mouth. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/73 "2013-05-26T18:55:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Everyone, including those who have no belief in a deity. > > The statement is not aimed at those outside the church, (who very likely share the views of **Left Hand of Dorkness** or **miss elizabeth** ), but at Catholics, to remind them both that they need to avoid sanctimoniously thinking that they are in some way superior and also that it is important to maintain both dialogue and cooperation with those whose beliefs we do not share. I recall reading that Francis, when he was an Archbishop, was famous for making Protestant and Jewish and Muslim friends and trying to promote interfaith dialogue and harmony. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/74 "2013-05-26T18:58:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? > > I thought this was dogma among all Christians (at least officially…I know individuals will have differing opinions about this). From [_The Next American Nation_](http://www.amazon.com/NEXT-AMERICAN-NATION-Nationalism-Revolution/dp/0684825031) (1995), by Michael Lind: > [@](#): > > Conservatives do not recognize how much the nation has changed since the fifties in its religious attitudes. It may be that the religion of nominal Christians in the United States can no longer be described as traditional trinitarian Christian. The scholarly term for their belief is henotheism, the belief that all ethnic groups and cultures have, and should have, their own gods and rites. In Christian theology, this is the heresy of indifferentism. Robert Linder and Richard Pierard have described the evolution of American civil religion: “Its umbrella has changed from evangelical consensus to Protestantism-in-general, to Christianity-in-general, to the Judeo-Christian tradition in general, to deism-in-general.” The decline in belief in Christianity as the only true religion has been extraordinarily rapid in the United States. In a poll taken in 1924 in Muncie, Indiana, 94 percent of high school students agreed that “Christianity is the one true religion and all peoples should be converted to it.” By the late 1970s, merely 38 percent of respondents in a later poll in Muncie agreed that Christianity was the only true faith. Two-thirds of the respondents in a 1991 poll agreed that Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists “pray to the same God.” A case could be made that Pope Francis is embracing the heresy of indifferentism. Which means, it’s not a heresy any more, right? How does that work? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/75 "2013-05-26T19:12:11Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You had better find a new pet peeve then, mate. > _Everybody_ that makes these kind of jokes, and they are jokes, doesn’t believe in hell. > Do you really think there are people that don’t believe in god or that Jezus was the messiah or heaven and all the other crap, but they do believe the bit about hell is real? Oh, I think everybody likes Hell jokes whether they believe in Hell or not. “Worst thing in the world” is a very good concept-basis for jokes. Of course you can’t make funny jokes about souls simply burning in fire and screaming in pain, but if you get creative like the Greek gods used to, there’s a lot of material. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/76 "2013-05-26T19:22:17Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Count me in for a big fair play to the Pope, even though I certainly am a non-believer. > > This does sorta ruin Pascal’s wager, though. Unless “behaving as if God existed” is based on the assumption of future judgment by works rather than faith. You could still be damned. I don’t hear the Pope espousing [Universalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism) here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/77 "2013-05-26T19:49:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From [_The Next American Nation_](http://www.amazon.com/NEXT-AMERICAN-NATION-Nationalism-Revolution/dp/0684825031) (1995), by Michael Lind: > > A case could be made that Pope Francis is embracing the heresy of indifferentism. Which means, it’s not a heresy any more, right? How does that work? It works when you add in the fact that you (or your cited author) is not correctly describing the heresy of indifference if you believe it applies to the Pope’s words. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/78 "2013-05-26T21:09:44Z")
Right, it’s not really indifferentism. The Pope still teaches that this is the One True Holy Christian Church, THE chosen instrument by which God’s grace of salvation reaches into our temporal world. But someone who is doing good is being inspired by God even if he does not know it, so let’s not be dicks about it going\* “nyaaah, nyaaah, you’re all going to Hell”\* at good and well meaning people who are not formal followers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/79 "2013-05-26T21:29:40Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Right, it’s not really indifferentism. The Pope still teaches that this is the One True Holy Christian Church, THE chosen instrument by which God’s grace of salvation reaches into our temporal world. But someone who is doing good is being inspired by God even if he does not know it, so let’s not be dicks about it going\* “nyaaah, nyaaah, you’re all going to Hell”\* at good and well meaning people who are not formal followers. Is he saying that they are good people that are _not_ going to Hell, or is he saying that Catholics should be respectful and just not bring up the fact that they are going to Hell? ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/80 "2013-05-26T22:04:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is he saying that they are good people that are _not_ going to Hell, or is he saying that Catholics should be respectful and just not bring up the fact that they are going to Hell? I suspect he means that “following Jesus” means doing good things, not going to church every Sunday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=5)