# Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072 "2013-05-22T22:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/101 "2013-05-27T16:23:46Z")
Might this be a sign of infighting in the Curia? We have nearly 2000 years of history showing that is ALWAYS fun! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/102 "2013-05-27T17:10:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I was thinking to myself, “I wonder when the church constitution was changed to make Fr. Rosica a higher authority than the Pope.” > [@dropzone](#): > > Might this be a sign of infighting in the Curia? We have nearly 2000 years of history showing that is ALWAYS fun! Kind of curious about this too. Is Fr. Rosica merely clarifying what Pope Francis said or is he contradicting what Francis said? Further, and a bit of an aside, when is the Pope speaking _ex cathedra_ (e.g. when are his pronouncements considered infallible)? I realize papal infallibility is a limited thing and is not meant to suggest that every word that passes his lips is infallible but, from the little reading I have done, it would seem this topic could fall under papal infallibility. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/103 "2013-05-27T17:21:04Z")
Good atheists invade heaven. Assassinate God. News at nine. psik ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/104 "2013-05-27T18:39:39Z")
**Czarcasm** , then go out and find said “official” statement, if you aren’t satisfied with the answers given here. **Whack-a-Mole** , generally he has to explicitely state that he is making an _ex cathedra_ statement. So no, I doubt this is one of them. They’re pretty rare. > [@Frylock](#): > > From the Catechism: > > “…they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” > > That word “knowing” allows for a lot of doctrinal wiggle room. Of course, if you really believe the church is necessary, you wouldn’t reject it, so there you go. 😉 The way I was always lead to understand it is that ultimately, no matter what, it is up to God. And that God is the ultimate judge of who’s saved – not the church. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/105 "2013-05-27T18:44:15Z")
**Czarcasm** , an atheist does not know God exists; it’s faith-based knowledge, an atheist does not have it, any more than I have a height of 7’. Neither does an agnostic. A folk atheist, previously known as a folk believer, is someone who only partakes in his religion’s ceremonies for social reasons and only if it doesn’t take too much effort; whether they “know there is a God” or not depends on the individual, many are just not going to ponder the question as it would be too much work. An anti-theist OTOH is someone who is convinced that God exists but who specifically goes against what he believes God to be (no, this is not the same as a Satanist). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/106 "2013-05-27T18:53:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **Czarcasm** , an atheist does not know God exists; it’s faith-based knowledge, an atheist does not have it, any more than I have a height of 7’. Neither does an agnostic. A folk atheist, previously known as a folk believer, is someone who only partakes in his religion’s ceremonies for social reasons and only if it doesn’t take too much effort; whether they “know there is a God” or not depends on the individual, many are just not going to ponder the question as it would be too much work. An anti-theist OTOH is someone who is convinced that God exists but who specifically goes against what he believes God to be (no, this is not the same as a Satanist). I know what an atheist is. > [@Vatican II](#): > > : "“Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.” (Declaration on the Church paragraph 16) I don’t think atheists “sincerely seek God” or “strive by their deeds to do His will”. I’d say Vatican II is pretty official when it come to Roman Catholic doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/107 "2013-05-27T18:54:18Z")
The second would depend on what you think God is. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/108 "2013-05-27T19:00:09Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > A folk atheist, previously known as a folk believer, is someone who only partakes in his religion’s ceremonies for social reasons and only if it doesn’t take too much effort; whether they “know there is a God” or not depends on the individual, many are just not going to ponder the question as it would be too much work. “Too much work”? What does that mean? Seems to me atheists/agnostics tend to put a LOT more thought into religion and spiritual matters than most “religious” people. This is born out by studies: > [@](#): > > The Pew Forum’s religious knowledge survey included 32 questions about various aspects of religion: the Bible, Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, world religions, religion in public life, and atheism and agnosticism. > > \ > > Overall, the three groups that perform best in this survey are atheists and agnostics (who get an average of 20.9 out of 32 questions right), Jews (20.5 questions right on average) and Mormons (20.3 questions right). > > SOURCE: [http://www.pewforum.org/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey-Who-Knows-What-About-Religion.aspx](http://www.pewforum.org/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey-Who-Knows-What-About-Religion.aspx) Anecdotally I have found atheists/agnostics can quote chapter and verse with greater reliability than most self-proclaimed devout Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/109 "2013-05-27T19:00:52Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The second would depend on what you think God is. Imaginary. Unevidenced. Mythical. Now, is there anything in Vatican II that indicates that atheists can get into heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/110 "2013-05-27T19:01:59Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The second would depend on what you think God is. What “God”? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/111 "2013-05-27T19:03:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > “Too much work”? > > What does that mean? > > Seems to me atheists/agnostics tend to put a LOT more thought into religion and spiritual matters than most “religious” people. I wasn’t speaking about _real_ atheists/agnostics in that part, you seem to have missed the qualifier “folk” and the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/112 "2013-05-27T19:03:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Imaginary. Unevidenced. Mythical. > Now, is there anything in Vatican II that indicates that atheists can get into heaven? Haven’t you read the entire thread? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/113 "2013-05-27T19:08:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I wasn’t speaking about _real_ atheists/agnostics in that part, you seem to have missed the qualifier “folk” and the definition. I do not understand the distinction. Either you do not believe in God or you do making you an atheist or not an atheist. An atheist who chooses to go to church for social reasons is still an atheist (if a closet one). If they are an atheist then they probably fall into the category of better informed on religious matters than actual believers. Of course that is all broad brush stuff. There are plenty of exceptions in both groups. This is just an “on average” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/114 "2013-05-27T19:08:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Haven’t you read the entire thread? Are you saying I missed a post that answered my question? Could you be so kind as to point it out, because I can’t seem to find it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/115 "2013-05-27T19:13:44Z")
This _entire thread_ has explained what the Catholic church has to say about atheists getting to Heaven. What was not answered specifically? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/116 "2013-05-27T19:14:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d say Vatican II is pretty official when it come to Roman Catholic doctrine. Well, [not nearly so much under JPII.](http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2000/05/Kung-Pope-Has-Betrayed-Second-Vatican-Council.aspx) A lot of us saw great things coming to the Church after 1964, then gave up on it when he showed signs of backsliding. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/117 "2013-05-27T19:16:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not understand the distinction. > > Either you do not believe in God or you do making you an atheist or not an atheist. > > An atheist who chooses to go to church for social reasons is still an atheist (if a closet one). If they are an atheist then they probably fall into the category of better informed on religious matters than actual believers. > > Of course that is all broad brush stuff. There are plenty of exceptions in both groups. This is just an “on average” thing. The reference was to a group of people who, in times and places in which “atheist” was/is a socially unacceptable label and “[X religion]” was/is expected, will label themselves as belonging to X. In times and places in which “atheist” is socially better, that’s what they use. Their beliefs and behaviors don’t change, only the label. If you ask them any specific questions about their supposed beliefs or lack thereof, they’re completely unable to give an answer beyond “eeeh… we-eeeelll…”, and they will give that kind of answer whatever label they happen to use. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/118 "2013-05-27T19:21:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If they are an atheist then they probably fall into the category of better informed on religious matters than actual believers. > > Of course that is all broad brush stuff. There are plenty of exceptions in both groups. This is just an “on average” thing. That brush is so broad as to be useless. A great many atheists know nothing about religious matters, and often demonstrate it here, where the standards of knowing what the hell you’re talking about is much higher than IRL. But I will agree that the number of believers who understand atheism is depressingly low. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/119 "2013-05-27T19:22:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > This _entire thread_ has explained what the Catholic church has to say about atheists getting to Heaven. What was not answered specifically? This entire thread hasn’t been an explanation-it’s been a _debate_, and if you got a specific answer to my question as to the official Catholic position as to whether atheists go to Hell or Heaven, it’s only because you just read the posts that agreed with whatever position you already hold, because I’m not seeing any consensus in this thread. Now, if there is anything from the Vatican that officially updates or changes what came out of Vatican II I hope someone provides a quote or a link, because as it stands now according the section of Vatican II I quoted it looks like the answer is atheists go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/120 "2013-05-27T19:26:33Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Well, [not nearly so much under JPII.](http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2000/05/Kung-Pope-Has-Betrayed-Second-Vatican-Council.aspx) A lot of us saw great things coming to the Church after 1964, then gave up on it when he showed signs of backsliding. Did he update or change anything when it comes to the specific question as to where atheists go when they die? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=7)