# Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072 "2013-05-22T22:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/121 "2013-05-27T19:27:46Z")
This is the kind of thing that happens when people who don’t know Catholic teachings cover statements from the RCC. I’m not Catholic and I’m not all that familiar with most of their official views, but this stuff is always more complicated than it looks. It sounds like this story started with reporters assuming redemption meant “going to heaven” and it got worse from there. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/122 "2013-05-27T19:29:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The atheists that don’t believe that gods exist but do good works(as opposed to atheists that believe that gods exist and do bad works I guess:rolleyes:-this hemming and hawing on your part is getting rather silly). Why shouldn’t I be asking your opinion? You _are_ posting in this thread, aren’t you? > > At this point in the conversation I am trying to decide what is more insulting-Christians telling atheists outright that they are going to Hell, or Christians believing that atheists are going to Hell but letting them think they may not be out of…concern for feelings? Vindictiveness? Something else? > > Edited to add: This bit about there being no official Roman Catholic position on whether atheists go to Heaven or Hell? Not buying it. Ahh! So the whole point is to try to find a reason to be insulted. I am not hemming and hawing. I have pointed out that one can find different claims by different Catholics while showing the trend that such statements have taken. Asking my view of what the church teaches would make sense, but you appeared to ask my personal opinion, which is not really relevant. Repeatedly distorting the statements that have been made, (such as your opening sentence and your entire second paragraph), makes it look more like a game of “Gotcha”" that you are playing to no particular purpose. As to not buying the lack of an official position, no one is offering to sell one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/123 "2013-05-27T19:38:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Ahh! So the whole point is to try to find a reason to be insulted. I am not hemming and hawing. I have pointed out that one can find different claims by different Catholics while showing the trend that such statements have taken. Asking my view of what the church teaches would make sense, but you appeared to ask my personal opinion, which is not really relevant. > > Repeatedly distorting the statements that have been made, (such as your opening sentence and your entire second paragraph), makes it look more like a game of “Gotcha”" that you are playing to no particular purpose. > > As to not buying the lack of an official position, no one is offering to sell one. The point of my question was to get a specific answer to a specific question-it was the responses that were insulting. If one is saying that reporters were wrong and the official viewpoint of the Roman Catholic Church was not changed by what the Pope said, logically one cannot later say that there is no official viewpoint of the Roman Catholic Church on this matter. This is what I am asking: What is the official viewpoint of the Roman Catholic church that was not changed by the Pope’s recent speech? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/124 "2013-05-27T19:48:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > That brush is so broad as to be useless. A great many atheists know nothing about religious matters, and often demonstrate it here, where the standards of knowing what the hell you’re talking about is much higher than IRL. But I will agree that the number of believers who understand atheism is depressingly low. Well, if you follow my link to the Pew study you see a nice, typical bell curve. So yes, it is a broad statement but not wholly without some insight. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/125 "2013-05-27T19:57:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is the kind of thing that happens when people who don’t know Catholic teachings cover statements from the RCC. I’m not Catholic and I’m not all that familiar with most of their official views, but this stuff is always more complicated than it looks. It apparently is but I see no reason why it should be complicated other than to allow wiggle room to on the one hand demand that the Catholic Church is the ONLY means to salvation and on the other hand to not look so mean when some nice Jewish kid who helped his community dies and they say he is going to hell. Seems to me they want their cake and eat it too. It should NOT be hard to answer the question, “If I do not believe in God am I still able to get into heaven according to your own orthodoxy? Yes or no and if yes what are the requirements?” Should be simple. Like joining any club the requirements for admission are generally clear and well spelled out. Seems to me the Catholic church is being deliberately vague and hemming and hawing. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/126 "2013-05-27T19:58:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The point of my question was to get a specific answer to a specific question-it was the responses that were insulting. If one is saying that reporters were wrong and the official viewpoint of the Roman Catholic Church was not changed by what the Pope said, logically one cannot later say that there is no official viewpoint of the Roman Catholic Church on this matter. This is what I am asking: What is the official viewpoint of the Roman Catholic church that was not changed by the Pope’s recent speech? As was already noted in several posts at the beginning of the thread, the pope expressed a view that is already consistent with much Catholic teaching. Other Catholics prefer to not see it the same way. That is why there is a difference of opinions expressed–there are genuine differences of opinion and no explicit “official” declaration other than lengthy paragraphs that consider the issue from multiple viewpoints. Nothing posted, that I recall, could be construed to mean that the church thinks all atheists are damned but that we’ll tell them differently to make them feel better. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/127 "2013-05-27T20:02:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Should be simple. Like joining any club the requirements for admission are generally clear and well spelled out. For “joining the club,” the requirements are clear and spelled out. For figuring out what real people do in their lives and how God will deal with their actions, not so much. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Seems to me the Catholic church is being deliberately vague and hemming and hawing. Sorry we can’t be like the fundies that you find easier to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/128 "2013-05-27T20:10:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > As was already noted in several posts at the beginning of the thread, the pope expressed a view that is already consistent with much Catholic teaching. Other Catholics prefer to not see it the same way. That is why there is a difference of opinions expressed–there are genuine differences of opinion and no explicit “official” declaration other than lengthy paragraphs that consider the issue from multiple viewpoints. > > Nothing posted, that I recall, could be construed to mean that the church thinks all atheists are damned but that we’ll tell them differently to make them feel better. You say there is no specific answer to my question, but **Guinastasia** says that question has been answered in this thread(but won’t say what the answer is). There seems to be some confusion here. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/129 "2013-05-27T20:12:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > For “joining the club,” the requirements are clear and spelled out. For figuring out what real people do in their lives and how God will deal with their actions, not so much. A religion that claims to be inspired by god and know the mind of god. A church whose Ten Commandments are literally (according to them) written by god. A leader of who can claim to speak _ex cathedra_ because he is guided by the Holy Spirit and thus channeling god and speaking infallibly. For all they’re telling us that they are the guardians of God’s word and God’s will they seem strangely at odds with themselves. Frankly they look like they have absolutely no fucking idea, any more than I do, about knowing God’s mind and will. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/130 "2013-05-27T20:30:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did he update or change anything when it comes to the specific question as to where atheists go when they die? Dunno. Got out when I realized that some of the other liberalizations I was looking for got kiboshed. Well, that and my own atheist thing. Hard to give a shit if I’m going to Heaven when I didn’t believe in Heaven anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/131 "2013-05-27T20:38:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > A religion that claims to be inspired by god and know the mind of god. I don’t think they claim to know the mind of God beyond whatever rules are in the scripture. I thought making those kind of claims was considered extremely arrogant if not actually sinful. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/132 "2013-05-27T20:46:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think they claim to know the mind of God beyond whatever rules are in the scripture. I thought making those kind of claims was considered extremely arrogant if not actually sinful. Perhaps it is a matter of degrees. IIRC Martin Luther’s main contribution to the protestant reformation was not nailing a note to a church door but rather translating the bible into the local language so the riff-raff could read it for themselves. Prior to that the priests were the keepers of the word. The arbiters of what was deemed right and wrong and there was no one to gainsay them. While today the bible is freely available to all it remains that clergy maintain a special status in being able to divine the will of god. They may not actually claim to explicitly know the mind of god but they are able to discern it better than anyone else. And again, in the case of the Pope and rare as it may be, it does happen that he claims to be speaking the direct will of god. So, he may not know the mind of god but he is the mouthpiece of god. A direct conduit from the divine to those of us on earth. To the discussion at hand one would think that something as central as what God requires for entry to heaven would have been explicit. The question is why we argue about this on GD at all (I mean one might argue that Catholics are wrong about what is required for entry into heaven but one would think Catholic dogma would be crystal clear on this point). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/133 "2013-05-27T20:57:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > To the discussion at hand one would think that something as central as what God requires for entry to heaven would have been explicit. You might think that, yes. But then again we’re talking about faith. People are capable of believing pretty much anything and they generally don’t choose to believe things based on carefully written definitions and cold cost-benefit analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/134 "2013-05-27T21:02:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You might think that, yes. But then again we’re talking about faith. People are capable of believing pretty much anything and they generally don’t choose to believe things based on carefully written definitions and cold cost-benefit analysis. But my questions had little to do with what various branches of the Catholic Church might or might not believe when it come to the official doctrine that comes from the Vatican, and more to do directly with that official doctrine itself. I posted a quote from Vatican II-does that not count as official? Is there anything more recent _from the Vatican_ that adds to or subtracts from that statement when it comes to whether or not atheists can get into heaven? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/135 "2013-05-27T21:09:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > For all they’re telling us that they are the guardians of God’s word and God’s will they seem strangely at odds with themselves. > > Frankly they look like they have absolutely no fucking idea, any more than I do, about knowing God’s mind and will. Claiming to know God’s mind is Catholic heresy, except in the very rare _ex cathedra_ pronouncements, and even then there’s a niggling doubt in the back of ones mind because the pope, being human, may have misinterpreted what he “heard.” God’s mind is too vast and incomprehensible for mere humans to have more than the merest inkling of what He is thinking. Catholic, like Jewish, theologians argue about everything but usually stay under the same tent. That’s one reason I find most Protestant denominations boring: everybody seems to agree on everything and if somebody doesn’t they quit and start another one. This hasn’t happened on a large scale in the Roman Church since 1890; coincidentally, this schism was over papal infallibility. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/136 "2013-05-27T21:15:44Z")
“Nobody goes to Heaven any more, its too crowded” - St. Yogi of Berra ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/137 "2013-05-27T21:18:19Z")
**Czarcasm** I think your question has been answered. I posted a sentence or two from the Catechism, and the Catechism is pretty much the go-to source for official doctrine. The Catechism says you can’t go to heaven if you know the Church is the Church and refuse to enter it or remain in it. That’s the official church doctrine on the matter. Different theologians have said different things about what it means to “know” in that phraseology. The church has not taught explicitly about this. And that is where matters stand. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/138 "2013-05-27T21:21:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But my questions had little to do with what various branches of the Catholic Church might or might not believe when it come to the official doctrine that comes from the Vatican, and more to do directly with that official doctrine itself. I posted a quote from Vatican II-does that not count as official? Is there anything more recent _from the Vatican_ that adds to or subtracts from that statement when it comes to whether or not atheists can get into heaven? I have no idea. I know **tomndebb** gave you a general answer and so far I haven’t seen anything that contradicts it- including Francis’ statement or your Vatican II quote. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/139 "2013-05-27T21:22:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Czarcasm** I think your question has been answered. I posted a sentence or two from the Catechism, and the Catechism is pretty much the go-to source for official doctrine. The Catechism says you can’t go to heaven if you know the Church is the Church and refuse to enter it or remain in it. That’s the official church doctrine on the matter. > > Different theologians have said different things about what it means to “know” in that phraseology. The church has not taught explicitly about this. And that is where matters stand. I can’t see how any explanation can be used to show that atheists believe that the Church is the Church, so this seems to say that atheists get in through _non_-belief. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/140 "2013-05-27T21:37:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can’t see how any explanation can be used to show that atheists believe that the Church is the Church, so this seems to say that atheists get in through _non_-belief. I think you misread it. It doesn’t say you must know the Church is the Church to go to heaven. It says that _if_ you know the Church is the Church and still refuse it, then you can’t go to heaven. To further clarify, a logical implication of what I just said is this: if you _do_ end up in heaven, then if you refused to join the Church, then you did not know that the Church was the Church. To my mind, this statement leaves open the possibility of an atheist–even one who grew up around Catholics–ending up in heaven. But to my knowledge the Church has no official teaching about whether an atheist can wind up in heaven or not. What I’ve quoted is, as far as I can tell, the most relevant teaching for the question you’re asking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=8)