# Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072 "2013-05-22T22:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/141 "2013-05-27T21:55:35Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > That’s one reason I find most Protestant denominations boring: everybody seems to agree on everything and if somebody doesn’t they quit and start another one. This hasn’t happened on a large scale in the Roman Church since 1890; coincidentally, this schism was over papal infallibility. You could see that as a strength or a weakness I suppose depending on your viewpoint. If you think the Catholics and/or the Jews have 99.9% of it right and are just niggling on minor details then yeah…protestants would seem a mess. If you take the view that there is a helluva lot of gray area in all of this then differing sects of Christianity makes sense. No one “knows” which is the right answer so you get a plethora of possibilities. Given where this thread has gone I would say the Catholic Church is surprisingly vague even within its own dogma/orthodoxy/catechism (sorry…not sure which word best applies here…hopefully you take my meaning). Thus it is no surprise when we non-Catholics assume they have no more idea about this than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/142 "2013-05-27T22:16:03Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > To my mind, this statement leaves open the possibility of an atheist–even one who grew up around Catholics–ending up in heaven. But to my knowledge the Church has no official teaching about whether an atheist can wind up in heaven or not. What I’ve quoted is, as far as I can tell, the most relevant teaching for the question you’re asking. I would submit (just my opinion) that this is intentional. The Catholic Church as a business (and make no mistake it is that and a hugely lucrative one) has no interest in allowing people to buy a competitor’s product and achieve the same results. They, like all religions, want to have a monopoly. If you want to take a more high-minded view Catholics (again like any religion) believe their dogma is the only correct view and the only route to salvation…whatever form that may take. Still, when preaching about a god of love and tolerance it is difficult to portray god as inflexible and wrathful. So, we get things like the battle over what happens to babies who die before being baptized. It was a PR nightmare for the church so they finagled their position to not seem so harsh. Same goes for the totally awesome and excellent atheist who, barring not being a Catholic, is an awesome person. Would the Catholic God deny a person who, in every regard _except_ for believing in the Catholic God was denied entry to heaven? Seems to me Catholics are purposefully vague on this because being explicit one way or the other is not in their interest. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/143 "2013-05-27T23:40:31Z")
In contrast to some other posters, I’m having trouble imagining anyone going to Catholic hell for unbelief. Who would that be? Someone who knows the Church is the way to get to heaven, but at the same time doesn’t believe it? Or, as Nava touched on, is it not atheists who are going to hell, but the apathetic: people who know Christ died for them but don’t really care? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/144 "2013-05-28T00:38:26Z")
The way I always interpreted it was that the Catholic church is the best, sure way. BUT, that one can never truly know the mind of God, and that he is the ultimate judge of who is saved and who is not. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Imaginary. Unevidenced. Mythical. > Now, is there anything in Vatican II that indicates that atheists can get into heaven? [LMGTFY](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vatican+ii+atheists) I’d say that this best sums it up: > [@JRDelirious](#): > > The RCC’s modern position IIRC is that Christ’s salvation is offered to the whole of humanity, whatever their current faith status, and people of good will who seek righteousness and love their neighbor are actually being drawn, even if inadvertently, to Christ, whose Mystical Body on Earth is the Church – and unlike Jack Chick, the RCC does not claim that seeking righteousness and loving your neighbor without adopting the exact form of devotion will count for naught. > > Says Ratzinger (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Dominus Iesus”, 2000): _“for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.”_ > You are all Catholics and you don’t know it 😃 > > Catholicism AIUI has for a long time accepted that much of Scripture is symbolic/allegorical and subject to interpretation, preferrably by a trained professional. Inerrant _in ultimate moral teaching_ – if you can figure out what IS the ultimate moral teaching in the story – but not factually literal to every last word. It seems to be the whole “sheep and goats thing”: whatsoever you do to the least of them, you do unto me. Those who are out there, actively practicing and doing good are practicing what Christ teachings. Other than that, I can’t help you. You seem to want one, concrete, short answer. The truth is, you’re not going to get one. Catholicism doesn’t work like fundamentalism. It’s not just black and white, this is it, end of story. Catholics don’t follow _sola scriptura_. It’s more philosophical. I suspect, though, this is one of those, “gotchya!” questions. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/145 "2013-05-28T00:51:04Z")
To my understanding, the new Pope, whether speaking off the cuff or _ex cathedra_ stated that good people through good deeds will be admitted to heaven. The immediate reaction from the Vatican was an attempt to control (correct?) the statement to bring it more in line with traditional RCC position of heaven being an exclusive place for a specific type of believer (a Catholic, for the most part). No big surprise here. The interesting part that will be revealed over time is whether the new Pope spoke out of turn and will be brought in line by the Vatican, or if he will remain a “loose cannon” (progressive) and be a challenge to rein in for the rest of his time as Pope. In this particular discussion on GD, those who are Catholics appear to be very accepting of having a few select atheists (or at least non-Catholics) for company in heaven. Most interesting however, are some few atheists who are trying harder than anyone else to get to the bottom of the question, “So do I get a pass to heaven now?” Really…? :rolleyes: …And why is nobody asking how this will affect the Jews? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/146 "2013-05-28T00:59:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > To my understanding, the new Pope, whether speaking off the cuff or _ex cathedra_ stated that good people through good deeds will be admitted to heaven. If you’ve read this thread, you know he did not say that. Catholic “redemption” =/= Catholic “salvation.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/147 "2013-05-28T01:16:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > …And why is nobody asking how this will affect the Jews? 😉 I thought about that earlier and it seems to me if there is some means by which Catholics figure atheists are allowed into heaven then surely Jews would be covered by that too (since they possess a belief in god as opposed to none at all I would think they are ahead of the game to get into heaven versus atheists). Atheists jump on this because they feel it highlights the inconsistencies in religious doctrine and is yet more proof for why they are correct in their view. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/148 "2013-05-28T01:26:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I was thinking to myself, “I wonder when the church constitution was changed to make Fr. Rosica a higher authority than the Pope.” I just assumed he was more or less the equivalent of a press secretary, and one of their duties is cleaning up after their boss says something a bit more controversial than intended. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/149 "2013-05-28T01:33:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You could see that as a strength or a weakness I suppose depending on your viewpoint. I’m an atheist who once (before the atheism thing) considered the Catholic priesthood. Specifically, becoming a Jesuit, the most argumentative breed. I like a good religious discussion. > [@](#): > > If you think the Catholics and/or the Jews have 99.9% of it right and are just niggling on minor details then yeah…protestants would seem a mess. No, I said they were boring. And not really the Protestants–hell, I’m supposedly a Lutheran these days, and my branch and the Anglicans are, theologically, pretty much Catholic, except for the nature of the Eucharist, and there the difference really is niggling to outsiders. (I’m a Memorialist and disagree with all of them.) > [@](#): > > If you take the view that there is a helluva lot of gray area in all of this then differing sects of Christianity makes sense. No one “knows” which is the right answer so you get a plethora of possibilities. No argument from me, and I welcome being pointed to a few thoughtful, educated Evangelical or Pentecostal theologians. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/150 "2013-05-28T01:39:39Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > From the Catechism: > > “…they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” > > That word “knowing” allows for a lot of doctrinal wiggle room. That sure does. I’ve been a Christian for 42 years, and I still don’t know it. In fact, I don’t know it now. All I know is that that’s what Catholics claim, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Needless to say, a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or atheist would have even less reason to put any stock in the truth of that than I would. In particular, **Czarcasm** ’s right that an atheist can’t ‘know’ anything allegedly involving God is true, since the atheist believes that God is mythical, imaginary, and all that. So the catechism certainly admits of a straightforward interpretation where it specifically doesn’t exclude him from heaven. It just doesn’t say he can get in, either. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/151 "2013-05-28T01:53:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So, in plain language, what is the official Catholic position on what happens to good atheists when they die? I asked my local Catholic priest on the weekend. Simple atheists can technically end up in heaven if they have followed Jesus’ path and teachings whether by design or accident, if an atheist knew god then he/she wouldn’t be an atheist. If you reject god but know him then you go to hell. The key is “know”, that is you have knowledge of god but refuse Him into your life. Some people are quite comfortable taking it on face value but some of us require more proof, this does not make us evil in the church’s eyes. There that settles it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/152 "2013-05-28T01:54:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In this particular discussion on GD, those who are Catholics appear to be very accepting of having a few select atheists (or at least non-Catholics) for company in heaven. “Few select”? Where have you seen any efforts to limit anyone? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/153 "2013-05-28T02:00:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And why is nobody asking how this will affect the Jews? 😉 They will be surprised, since they don’t believe in Heaven, at least one like the Catholics have. Then they’d kvetch about the food (“Oy, did you see the buffet today? All ham and shrimp! All I could eat was salad and bread. Tomorrow I’m going to Irish heaven and have some brisket and some boiled cabbage and potatoes. It’s not like Mama used to make, but whadya expect from goyim?”). And then the theological arguments with God would start. Not to mention the issues they have with His Kid, striding around Heaven like He owns the place. And that poor mother of His? She tried to raise Him right, but He started acting like He was smarter than the rabbis at His own bar mitzvah! Are there any cliches I missed? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/154 "2013-05-28T02:12:51Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > I asked my local Catholic priest on the weekend. > > Simple atheists can technically end up in heaven if they have followed Jesus’ path and teachings whether by design or accident, if an atheist knew god then he/she wouldn’t be an atheist. > > If you reject god but know him then you go to hell. I don’t understand. If I do good, but don’t know/care it’s Jesus’ path then I go to Heaven. So belief in Jesus is irrelevant. If I do good and reject Jesus I go to hell, so my belief about Jesus is relevant. Does my destination depend of what I personally think of Jesus or not? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/155 "2013-05-28T02:20:34Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I don’t understand. If I do good, but don’t know/care it’s Jesus’ path then I go to Heaven. So belief in Jesus is irrelevant. > > If I do good and reject Jesus I go to hell, so my belief about Jesus is relevant. > Does my destination depend of what I personally think of Jesus or not? No your belief is 100% relevant, if you believe in Jesus Son of God and the associated magik stuff then you are cool, if you then say “Jesus piss off mate I like this Lucifer bloke better” then downstairs you go. If you accept Jesus as a historical figure with no super natural attributes {like me} then it could easily be argued we don’t “know” Him. Knowing Him is personal, just because we have read the Bible or had discussions with priests does not mean we know him. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/156 "2013-05-28T02:32:13Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > No your belief is 100% relevant, if you believe in Jesus Son of God and the associated magik stuff then you are cool, if you then say “Jesus piss off mate I like this Lucifer bloke better” then downstairs you go. > > If you accept Jesus as a historical figure with no super natural attributes {like me} then it could easily be argued we don’t “know” Him. > > Knowing Him is personal, just because we have read the Bible or had discussions with priests does not mean we know him. If Jesus is really great then it could be argued anyone who picks this Lucifer bloke doesn’t really know him either. It sounds like I’m going to need a lawyer present when I meet St. Pete. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/157 "2013-05-28T03:23:40Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > If Jesus is really great then it could be argued anyone who picks this Lucifer bloke doesn’t really know him either. > > It sounds like I’m going to need a lawyer present when I meet St. Pete. LOL probably but I think they all go downstairs… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/158 "2013-05-28T12:34:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > “Few select”? Where have you seen any efforts to limit anyone? In truth, no-one thus far. I was being parsimonious in case an objector came along later. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/159 "2013-05-28T12:52:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So the catechism certainly admits of a straightforward interpretation where it specifically doesn’t exclude him from heaven. It just doesn’t say he can get in, either. Maybe, right after you die, there’s going to be a quiz. Select ONE. Take all the time you need to decide: A. Heaven B. Hell C. Reincarnation (have your Karma ready) D. None of the above ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/160 "2013-05-28T15:56:01Z")
The problem is that the Catholic Church (obviously) starts with the presupposition that atheists are wrong. The Catholic Church’s answer to the question, “Can I, as an atheist, get into heaven?” is “It depends on why you are wrong. If you are wrong because you stubbornly refuse to see the truth, you are going to hell; if you are wrong because you can’t help it, then (if you are also a good person) you are going to heaven.” A few individual Catholics might say, “No one could be so stubborn as to refuse to believe in God when they can see that He does, so all atheists must be ignorant and can go to heaven if they are good.” Other Catholics might say, “No one could be so ignorant as to fail to see that God exists, so all atheists must be stubborn and will go to hell no matter what.” The church itself only defines the categories; there is no official opinion on which, if any, atheists fall into one or the other. The atheist of course may say, “But I’m neither stubborn nor ignorant, I’m correct! What is the Catholic doctrine on me?” But it should be easy to see that the Catholic doctrine is that atheists who are correct about God do not exist. This is naturally unsatisfying to us atheists, but what can we expect? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=9)