# Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072 "2013-05-22T22:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/161 "2013-05-28T16:05:35Z")
“Now, we’re not saying outright that [del]something awful is going to happen to your store[/del]you’re going to Hell if you don’t [del]pay up[/del]worship God…” ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/162 "2013-05-28T16:37:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Now, we’re not saying outright that [del]something awful is going to happen to your store[/del]you’re going to Hell if you don’t [del]pay up[/del]worship God…” That’s clever. Did you come up with that all by yourself? It’s no surprise that Pope Francis thinks that atheists are wrong, but it is newsworthy that he says atheists are merely ignorant and in fact are generally good people honestly seeking the truth rather than willfully ignorant and evil, which many in his hierarchy clearly still believe. That’s a genuine (if not radical) development in the church and says something positive about the direction Francis wants to move the church. He’s actively trying _NOT_ to use the doctrine of hell as a threat against atheists. He hasn’t actually changed the doctrine, but that’s unsurprising. “Pope still Catholic: film at eleven!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/163 "2013-05-28T17:01:47Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > That’s clever. Did you come up with that all by yourself? > > It’s no surprise that Pope Francis thinks that atheists are wrong, but it is newsworthy that he says atheists are merely ignorant and in fact are generally good people honestly seeking the truth rather than willfully ignorant and evil, which many in his hierarchy clearly still believe. That’s a genuine (if not radical) development in the church and says something positive about the direction Francis wants to move the church. He’s actively trying _NOT_ to use the doctrine of hell as a threat against atheists. He hasn’t actually changed the doctrine, but that’s unsurprising. “Pope still Catholic: film at eleven!” Point taken, I guess. It’s that his statement used the word “redemption”-how could he not know how the outside world would react? I guess we get to see whether his Church takes his words to heart, or whether they get explained away into nothingness by his aides. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/164 "2013-06-02T12:41:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Redeemed means that Jesus has paid any debt that is considered to be owed for sin. The language comes from the Jewish practice (not limited to Judaism) of sacrificing animals to God in atonement for sin. The concepts, today, can vary widely as to what that means in current theology, but the central meaning remains that God calls all people to be saved and provides the means to accept that salvation, (even if they do not realize it). The act of Jesus means that no person can “earn” their salvation, he has earned it for them. > > There has been a long and developing tradition in Christian theology, (not embraced by Evangelicals or stricter adherents to Calvinist theology), that God would not punish people who could not have known of Him or that were prevented from believing in Him due to other factors. In the twentieth century, Catholic theologian, Karl Rahner, made that a keystone of his theological tracts, coining the term “Anonymous Christian” to explore the idea that a person who has embraced the principles of the message of Jesus would be saved. The Lutheran theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer coined the term “Unconscious Christianity” to explore a similar message. (C.S. Lewis incorporated the idea into his final Narnia book, The Last Battle, in 1956. The concept of “Baptism of Desire” extends at least as far back as the Council of Trent in the late sixteenth century.) > > There are scriptural allusions to the idea, (contradicted by other passages, of course 😛 ): > Romans 2:12 - 16 > 1 Timothy 2:4 > Matthew 25:34 - 46 (to which we will return). > > = = = > > There will be kickback from a number of non-Catholic Christians, (and probably several groups of Catholics). The Catholics will be mad that he has not reversed the condemnation of Fr. Feeney’s claim that only Catholics are going to heaven. (That heresy was suppressed about 60 years ago.) > Many Protestants are going to be upset (or delighted to have more ammunition) over what might turn into a revival of the “faith vs works” dispute. > > The Catholic church has never denied, (despite claims by some non-Catholics), that it is impossible for a person to “earn” salvation. However, the RCC has always pointed to Matthew 25:34 - 46 for its position. That passage makes no mention of faith while describing those who will be saved or damned, but refers to the actions of those judged. It is the teaching of the church, not that anyone earns their salvation, but that their response to God’s offer of salvation can only be identified by their actions. The Letter of James makes much the same point–it is not a new belief–which is why Martin Luther would have liked to strike it from the canon. Rahner, (and Bonhoeffer, though not Catholic), expand on that idea by setting forth the idea that the Spirit of Jesus is in the world, calling humanity to be with him and that they respond, (even if unconsciously), by behaving in a just and merciful manner. > > There are plenty of references in Scripture, (and any number of pronouncements from the church over the centuries), that are in conflict with the current expressions, but Pope Francis has not really made a startlingly new claim. If Jesus came to redeem all of mankind, why is he quoted aS saying ,he only came for the LOST sHEEP OF Israel? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/165 "2013-06-02T16:44:33Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If Jesus came to redeem all of mankind, why is he quoted aS saying ,he only came for the LOST sHEEP OF Israel? Well, aside from noting that there are a lot of contradictions in scripture, I would note that you have misquoted the statement. Jesus did not say he was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel, but to the lost sheep of Israel. He could be sent for the whole world while being sent only to the people of Israel. In fact, that is a standard depiction of his ministry, even outside the incident in Matthew 15. (And, after being fairly rude to the Canaanite woman to whom he was talking (apparently to test her faith), he then went on and granted her request, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/166 "2013-06-02T17:43:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > D. **None of the above** No, Limbo is not an official teaching of the Church, despite what the nuns told me. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/167 "2013-06-02T18:22:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, aside from noting that there are a lot of contradictions in scripture I don’t want to hijack this thread, but can you please refer me to a post where you explain why you believe that the Bible is true about things that humans cannot verify, in spite of your awareness that it contains many contradictions and errors? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/168 "2013-06-02T20:00:44Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I don’t want to hijack this thread, but can you please refer me to a post where you explain why you believe that the Bible is true about things that humans cannot verify, in spite of your awareness that it contains many contradictions and errors? Nope. I pretty universally refrain from getting into discussions about my personal beliefs. [This is about as close as I come to such discussion.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7876168#post7876168) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/169 "2013-06-02T23:28:10Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > The atheist of course may say, “But I’m neither stubborn nor ignorant, I’m correct! What is the Catholic doctrine on me?” But it should be easy to see that the Catholic doctrine is that atheists who are correct about God do not exist. This is naturally unsatisfying to us atheists, but what can we expect? I concur with all of the above, except the part about its being unsatisfying - that part I just don’t understand. After all, if you’re certain there’s _nothing_ after death, then it really doesn’t much matter what one or another of the various Ceiling Cat fan clubs believe will happen to you after you die, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/170 "2013-06-03T00:35:58Z")
Let’s not forget that Francis is a Jesuit – they tend to be rather non-conformist and a lot more philosophical. So it’s going to be pretty interesting how the Vatican deals with a Jesuit pope. (He’s the first, I believe) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/171 "2013-06-03T00:42:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > . . . After all, if you’re certain there’s _nothing_ after death, then it really doesn’t much matter what one or another of the various Ceiling Cat fan clubs believe will happen to you after you die, does it? Nope. The only problem comes when some of them take actions that affect me in this world. If they’re willing to leave me alone and respect my freedom, I’m entirely comfortable doing the same for them. Ideally, belief is individual and personal. No one’s beliefs should be used against anyone else. One of Hugh Hefner’s “Playboy Philosophy” theses was, everyone should be free to seek God in their own way…and everyone should be free to go to the devil in their own way. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/172 "2013-06-03T01:28:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Nope. The only problem comes when some of them take actions that affect me in this world. If they’re willing to leave me alone and respect my freedom, I’m entirely comfortable doing the same for them. Ideally, belief is individual and personal. No one’s beliefs should be used against anyone else. > > One of Hugh Hefner’s “Playboy Philosophy” theses was, everyone should be free to seek God in their own way…and everyone should be free to go to the devil in their own way. Well naturally. Although in this case, I don’t see where the Pope’s comments are doing so. Just stating a belief. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/173 "2013-06-03T04:59:35Z")
Well, I’d have to say that the modern Catholic Church trespasses a little against the secular law in their energetic opposition to abortion and gay marriage. They make rules which they attempt to impose on non-Catholics. So, no, the Pope doesn’t leave the rest of us strictly alone. Certainly, though, in the context of the thread, his statements about atheists – and the clarifications from other Church officials – do not intrude upon my rights, freedoms, privacy, or interests. I do not believe that the Church is the gatekeeper of Heaven or Hell – and I don’t believe in Heaven or Hell anyway. It’s been a long time since the Church decreed a crusade against the unbelievers. (But the treatment of the Huguenots was shameful!) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/174 "2013-06-03T06:27:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Certainly, though, in the context of the thread, his statements about atheists – and the clarifications from other Church officials – do not intrude upon my rights, freedoms, privacy, or interests. I do not believe that the Church is the gatekeeper of Heaven or Hell – and I don’t believe in Heaven or Hell anyway. Well, that’s the one I meant. Hey, he’s already annoying some of the older cardinals – you saw how they rushed to “interpret” for him. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/175 "2013-06-03T07:52:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I concur with all of the above, except the part about its being unsatisfying - that part I just don’t understand. > > After all, if you’re certain there’s _nothing_ after death, then it really doesn’t much matter what one or another of the various Ceiling Cat fan clubs believe will happen to you after you die, does it? Well, it can certainly be annoying and upsetting to be told that you’re going to hell all the time, even if you don’t believe it. But I meant intellectually unsatisfying, at least inasmuch as one is trying to make sense of religious doctrine. **Czarcasm** seemed unsatisfied that Catholics could tell him what the Church says about dishonest atheists and what it says about irrational or ignorant atheists, but seemingly refused to say what the Church thought about _him_, an atheist who was neither dishonest nor irrational nor ignorant. I was being sympathetic, but I can see how it would be very frustrating until you realize that those are the only categories of atheists the church believes in, and not exactly a pleasing revelation when you do. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/176 "2013-06-03T12:53:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, aside from noting that there are a lot of contradictions in scripture, I would note that you have misquoted the statement. > > Jesus did not say he was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel, but to the lost sheep of Israel. He could be sent for the whole world while being sent only to the people of Israel. In fact, that is a standard depiction of his ministry, even outside the incident in Matthew 15. (And, after being fairly rude to the Canaanite woman to whom he was talking (apparently to test her faith), he then went on and granted her request, anyway.) Since he came to or for the lost sheep of Israel the meaning can be the same, I would like a quote that states that Jesus said he came to save the whole world. Here is the direct quote Matthew 15 verse 24; But he answered and said I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel. the other verses seem to verify this! ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/177 "2013-06-03T13:06:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > After all, if you’re certain there’s _nothing_ after death, then it really doesn’t much matter what one or another of the various Ceiling Cat fan clubs believe will happen to you after you die, does it? While I agree with this in general, the things those ‘Ceiling Cat fans’ say does have an effect on my life. Those religious leaders have convinced my Mom, my mother-in-law and numerous others in my life that I am personally going to hell because I don’t believe. Those people in my life believe that those leaders actually talk to God and he tells them that I am on the wrong course. That kind of stuff worries some people that I love. I’d rather the various religious leaders of the world butt their noses out of my business and stop making up scary stories to frighten old ladies into compliance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/178 "2013-06-03T13:12:41Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Well, it can certainly be annoying and upsetting to be told that you’re going to hell all the time, even if you don’t believe it. But I meant intellectually unsatisfying, at least inasmuch as one is trying to make sense of religious doctrine. **Czarcasm** seemed unsatisfied that Catholics could tell him what the Church says about dishonest atheists and what it says about irrational or ignorant atheists, but seemingly refused to say what the Church thought about _him_, an atheist who was neither dishonest nor irrational nor ignorant. I was being sympathetic, but I can see how it would be very frustrating until you realize that those are the only categories of atheists the church believes in, and not exactly a pleasing revelation when you do. This. If the church accepts that I am an atheist, but that there are only dishonest and/or irrational and/or ignorant atheists, then it is saying that I _must_ be dishonest and/or irrational and/or ignorant. It is one thing to say that they don’t know what the rules are for my kind of atheist, but it quite another to say that what I claim I am doesn’t exist and therefor I am lying. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/179 "2013-06-03T14:38:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This. If the church accepts that I am an atheist, but that there are only dishonest and/or irrational and/or ignorant atheists, then it is saying that I _must_ be dishonest and/or irrational and/or ignorant. It is one thing to say that they don’t know what the rules are for my kind of atheist, but it quite another to say that what I claim I am doesn’t exist and therefor I am lying. In my view, it’s perfectly possible to be an honest and rational atheist. Atheism is in fact the correct default position – extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. An atheist who has not experienced such extraordinary proof remains, rationally, an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072/180 "2013-06-03T14:57:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, it’s perfectly possible to be an honest and rational atheist. Atheism is in fact the correct default position – extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. An atheist who has not experienced such extraordinary proof remains, rationally, an atheist. Thank you…but the topic of this thread involves the Roman Catholic Church and the influence it has. When you add in the official positions concerning atheists from all the other denominations that believe somewhat the same thing… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-atheists-who-do-good-are-redeemed-not-just-catholics/659072.md?page=10)