# Pope Francis says not having children is selfish **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 12, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449 "2015-02-12T04:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/61 "2015-02-13T05:58:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Was he just speaking about Catholics or are the rest of us selfish too if we don’t want have children? I believe only Catholics are encouraged to follow the church doctrine, or am I expected to attend Mass now too? He was talking about something said by a previous pope: > [@The Pope](#): > > [He] was looking at the Neo-Malthusianism that was underway worldwide. What do you call this Neo-Malthusianism? Less than one percent of birth rate in Italy. The same in Spain. That Neo-Malthusianism that seeks to control humanity on behalf of the powers (that be). But then he extended the thought to include people who had too many children, without planning for the possiblity of the carers death or dissability: > [@The Pope](#): > > This does not mean that the Christian must make children in series. I rebuked a woman some months ago in a parish who was pregnant eight times, By the magic of the internet and the media, saying that having children may be selfish has transmorgified into “not having children is selfish” [Transcript of press conference](http://americamagazine.org/content/dispatches/full-transcript-popes-press-conference-flight-manila) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/62 "2015-02-13T06:25:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t listen to him! You’re this close to breaking Mick Jagger’s record! No…I think Mick takes time out for meals, sleep and performances. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/63 "2015-02-13T06:27:01Z")
I don’t know why you are citing a press conference from 2 weeks ago. [Here](http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/general-audience-on-the-gift-of-children) is the transcript of the remarks we are talking about. In context: > [@](#): > > a society that is greedy with its generation, which does not like to surround itself with children, that considers them above all a worry, a weight, a risk, is a depressed society, because they do not want children, they don’t have children, the birthrate never reaches one percent. Why? Each one of us must think and respond. If a family that is full of children is regarded as if it were a weight, there is something that’s not right! The generation of children must be responsible, as the Encyclical Humanae vitae of Blessed Pope Paul VIalso teaches, but to have more children cannot become automatically an irresponsible choice. To not have children is a selfish choice. Life rejuvenates and acquires energies by multiplying itself: it is enriched, not impoverished! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/64 "2015-02-13T08:34:57Z")
The Pope needs to lay off [Lester del Rey novels](http://www.amazon.com/ELEVENTH-COMMANDMENT-NOVEL-CHURCH-WORLD/dp/B0045XAEC2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1423816337&sr=8-2&keywords=church+of+the+eleventh+commandment). ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/65 "2015-02-13T15:19:07Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I’m willing to bet Pope Francis has not schedule-fucked a partner for the 100th time because the thermometer says go!, in an attempt to have a baby. I bet he hasn’t done it for \>10 years and sunk \>100,000 bucks into reproductive therapy to no avail. I’m willing to bet he’s a big-mouthed asshole. You are in error over Pope Francis said. Roman Catholicism has never had a problem (other than a tendency to pity them a bit too much) with married couples who are childless because they cannot conceive children. Some infertility treatments are opposed by the Roman Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/66 "2015-02-13T15:25:10Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Define “had.” There’s always the legend/mystery that was Pope Joan to think about. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/67 "2015-02-13T16:46:02Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Ooooooh, Frankie! I think all the secular liberals who used to love you are about to abandon you in droves. > > I’m tempted to say “Serves you right.” But who am I to judge? :dubious: I’m one of the Jesus freak liberals (though I’m sure the fundies would claim that being a liberal inherently makes me secular), but I would note that most of us libruls are capable of discerning between shades of gray. We can say we like most of what Obama is doing, but criticize him for some of his actions. And this happens without our transitioning directly from ‘O-bots’ to Obama-haters. Same with Francis. He’s a big improvement over the rest of the past half-century’s worth of Popes, but we also are aware that he’s not going to overturn a whole bunch of established Catholic dogma. I think I said in a previous Francis thread that just the shift in emphasis, raising the importance of economic justice from the lip-service level that Ratzinger gave it, to a concern that’s front and center with him, makes a big difference all by itself, without even hinting at changing any pre-existing Catholic doctrine. This is a little trickier than “X good, not-X bad” but it’s not rocket surgery. People can do this sort of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/68 "2015-02-13T16:54:33Z")
Given how I took the brunt of inherited mental and physical health issues that run on both sides of my family, I don’t know that I’m being selfish to refuse to pass on what basically amounts to genetic weakness in my species. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/69 "2015-02-13T21:40:13Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > They have done so for a long while. It’s not a new thing. > > Rant about some of the more obnoxious aspects of “Natural Family Planning”, with a side order of extra bitterness at the end. > > And you believe he cares about the admiration of shallow secularists? That he has been saying the things he has been saying for ratings among the Libsphere? (Serves \*them \*right if they forgot the Pope’s Catholic, though…) Sadly, yes, I think that this is a guy who likes being liked. That said, I think it’s a GOOD thing for my fellow conservative Catholics to realize that 1. The Pope isn’t always going to be on our side 2. It’s not healthy to get too USED to the idea that the Pope will always be on our side 3. Hero worship (especially of JP2) isn’t healthy, and neither is demonization. ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/70 "2015-02-13T22:25:21Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > That’s too bad. I’ve generally liked what this Pope has had to say (on a variety of topics) up to this point. Personally I’ve never quite understood that point-of-view. I guess in some senses I can see it: not wanting to put up with the trials of raising kids while others (COUNTLESS others) do. More importantly, to some: not wanting to create a new life. But I prefer an alternative view which states: “By not having children I’m not adding to the resource consumption of the planet by humans.” You can probably guess whether or not I have kids. I’ve been thinking about this lately. In so many books and movies, liking and wanting kids is shorthand for being a good, loving, generous, and kind person, and not wanting kids is shorthand for being a selfish person, who is probably a villain in other ways. As I knew when i was 18 already that I didn’t want kids, this shorthand bugs me. I think that if you don’t have kids because you have genuine ecological concerns, or don’t want to pass on bad genes, or because you know you wouldnt be a good parent, it is an unselfish choice. I think if you decided not to have kids, even though you have good circumstances, simply because you are too damn lazy to care for them, it is both selfish, but also good good for the potential kid, if you don’t have them. Yet again, sometimes becoming a parent is the making of a person, turning a self-centered git into good human being. And sometimes not. If you have kids just because you are driven by hormonal desire for them – I’ve known people, both men and women, who;ve gotten baby fever badly – that is selfish. But sometimes it works out brilliantly well. And sometimes not. It’s not an easy yes/no, selfish/unselfish. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/71 "2015-02-13T23:15:13Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > That said, I think it’s a GOOD thing for my fellow conservative Catholics to realize that > > 1. The Pope isn’t always going to be on our side > > 2. It’s not healthy to get too USED to the idea that the Pope will always be on our side > > 3. Hero worship (especially of JP2) isn’t healthy, and neither is demonization. Um, as Catholics should y’all not be concerned as to whether _you_ are on the Pope’s good side? 😉 But seriously, those three points are fair call. The “liberal” side \*have \*been getting a bit too damn breathless about Francis even when he merely restates longtime doctrine in “kinder, gentler” words. And people tend to forget that the oft-maligned Benedict was JP2’s own trusted right-hand man. OTOH 50 years later we still have a few people whining over Vat-II. People sometimes miss that the RCC’s proclamation of Eternal Truth and claim of continuity all the way to Peter does not mean rigid immobility, otherwise it would not have survived this long: the \*form \*evolves, as befits something run by humans. What’s underlying is what should not change. But like I said WRT the last two successions, anyone thinking that someone will be elected Pope who’ll change the RCC into the ELCA is just dreaming, everyone keep their shirts on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/72 "2015-02-14T00:57:36Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > [“No, not wives, but why not children?”](http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/westn/julius.html) Funny thing is, Julius II is talking to Peter. Who was married. Matthew 8:14 – he had a mother-in-law. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/73 "2015-02-14T01:02:03Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Sadly, yes, I think that this is a guy who likes being liked. This is sad?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/74 "2015-02-14T01:09:17Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > OTOH 50 years later we still have a few people whining over Vat-II. Yeah, what’s **that** all about?! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/75 "2015-02-14T06:43:53Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Sadly, yes, I think that this is a guy who likes being liked. > > That said, I think it’s a GOOD thing for my fellow conservative Catholics to realize that > > 1. The Pope isn’t always going to be on our side > > 2. It’s not healthy to get too USED to the idea that the Pope will always be on our side > > 3. Hero worship (especially of JP2) isn’t healthy, and neither is demonization. How is Francis not “on our side” if what he is saying is in line with conservative Catholicism? ---
**Author:** ![Cell\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Cell\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cell_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/76 "2015-02-14T13:17:01Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > **GOOD LORD!!!** You should stop and rest. Not continuously, geez! I rest every seven days. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/77 "2015-02-14T15:31:06Z")
> [@Cell\_Guy](#): > > Not continuously, geez! I rest every seven days. Yeah, but, still! 168 hours straight! [Shudder] ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/78 "2015-02-14T16:18:01Z")
Every single reason for not having children is on my resume, but there are people who tell me “You don’t have children? I feel sorry for you.” The same people call my sister a child abuser for raising four daughters with her first partner, and four more with her current wife. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/79 "2015-02-14T17:59:32Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > […] > > The same people call my sister a child abuser for raising four daughters with her first partner, and four more with her current wife. Say what??! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![BlindTyger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@BlindTyger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlindTyger)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/80 "2015-02-14T18:27:25Z")
Hilarious, yet true. One point for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449.md?page=5)