# Pope Francis says not having children is selfish **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 12, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449 "2015-02-12T04:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/81 "2015-02-14T20:14:09Z")
Honey, I’ve heard it straight from the mouths of many anti-abortion protestors who sing the praises of adoption, but only to the “right” people–straight couples. When a lesbian friend of my sister conceived a child through rape, every anti-abortion person she spoke to told her to “have the child and give it to a real family.” I once had the following dialogue with one such person: Me: My sister and her wife have four daughters. Are they a family? AA: Well, they are not a traditional family. Me: I know that. Are they a family? AA: They are like a family. Me: Look, I didn’t ask you if they were like a family. Do you consider them a family Long pause, before she responded: No, I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/82 "2015-02-14T21:55:39Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > When a lesbian friend of my sister conceived a child through rape, every anti-abortion person she spoke to told her to “have the child and give it to a real family.” How about this lovely conversation between an acquaintance of mine who got pregnant from rape and the “wonderful” folks at the Philippine embassy in Tokyo when my acquaintance went to get a report of birth abroad of a Philippine citizen for the child? [del]Piece of Crap[/del]Philippine Consulate worker: What is the child’s father’s name? Victim of Rape: I don’t know. I was raped. PC: Well, you need to find out. That way you can marry the child’s real father. That would be best for the child. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/83 "2015-02-14T23:14:59Z")
It’s hard to follow Monty’s comment, but I’ll try. > [@Rikk001](#): > > This goes back to the old saying in the Bible of ‘be fruitful and multiply’, which considering the global population of the time, was a good way to increase the ‘faithful’. > > However, the population was measured in the millions, and now it’s in the hundreds of billions, so I kind of suspect that people have been ‘fruitful’ enough, especially since due to such gross over population, the globe has started running low on resources, pollution is rampant, and the inevitable over crowding has played a huge role in the many wars we’ve had. > > Not everything in the Bible should be taken as flat fact. Times change. Plus the Bible has been heavily edited and translated many times, with errors being made along the way. This has been debated and answered in Judaism since before the common era. Rabbi Shammai said that two sons would fulfill the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, while Hillel said a son and a daughter. FWIW, Orthodox Jews usually still raise large families, but it’s considered imperative to follow a doctor’s advice whenever he says that a woman should stop having children for the sake of her own health. What does the RC church think of those situations? Orthodox couples are free to choose to use birth control, although they know they may be judged by rheir neighbors for not fully trusting HaShem if they don’t have a reason, like the wife being diabetic, and being told not to have anymore children, or the couple both carrying the Tay Sachs gene. > [@Tapiotar](#): > > I’ve been thinking about this lately. In so many books and movies, liking and wanting kids is shorthand for being a good, loving, generous, and kind person, and not wanting kids is shorthand for being a selfish person, who is probably a villain in other ways. As I knew when i was 18 already that I didn’t want kids, this shorthand bugs me. Not everyone feels that way. Just as an example, because I happen to know her personally, the children’s author Meg Cabot doesn’t have children. She was great with kids when we were in high school, and did all the same babysitting all of us did, she was a camp counselor, and we were Special Olympics volunteers together. She understands kids very well, she likes kids. She just isn’t a parent. I don’t know whether she’d be a good parent or not, but she’s a good person, and she would be even if she didn’t like kids, but the fact is she does like them. She’s great when she makes personal appearances and does book signings. If there’s a reason she wouldn’t be a good parent, it’s probably that she would be too much of a playmate, and not enough of an adult with her kids. For all I know, she doesn’t have kids, because she doesn’t want to have to grow up that part of herself that she taps into when she writes (total WAG, though, but a lot of children’s authors don’t have kids). Now, it’s true that someone who is generally grumpy or somehow a bad person isn’t someone who needs to be around my son, but it’s not a dichotomy, and I know that. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/84 "2015-02-15T04:58:04Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > FWIW, Orthodox Jews usually still raise large families, but it’s considered imperative to follow a doctor’s advice whenever he says that a woman should stop having children for the sake of her own health. > > What does the RC church think of those situations? Natural methods of “taking advantage of infertile periods”; these days that seems to be NaPro. If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. > **[Humanae Vitae (July 25, 1968) | Paul VI](https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html)** > > Humanae Vitae - Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Paul VI on the regulation of birth, 25 July 1968 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/85 "2015-02-15T05:19:07Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > How about this lovely conversation between an acquaintance of mine who got pregnant from rape and the “wonderful” folks at the Philippine embassy in Tokyo when my acquaintance went to get a report of birth abroad of a Philippine citizen for the child? > > [del]Piece of Crap[/del]Philippine Consulate worker: What is the child’s father’s name? > Victim of Rape: I don’t know. I was raped. > PC: Well, you need to find out. That way you can marry the child’s real father. That would be best for the child. Okay, you win the thread. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/86 "2015-02-15T05:25:20Z")
You don’t have to be pope or even Catholic to hold this common sentiment. I’ve been told by secular Protestants that the wife and I are selfish for not having any. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/87 "2015-02-15T05:26:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Okay, you win the thread. :eek: I’m going to pretend that the PC was not speaking his or her native language when this exchange occurred, and he she or he been doing so, would have said “May I call you a cab, and direct it to the nearest police station? and following that, the office of social services, to make sure that you have enough support to be raising a child alone? The embassy will pay for the cab.” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/88 "2015-02-15T14:23:46Z")
I assume that when the other shoe drops, it will be to reiterate the ban on contraception. If he cannot judge homosexuals, who is he to judge how people conduct their marriage? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/89 "2015-02-16T07:20:26Z")
So even after the context has been given, none of you guys are reading it? It’s not a general rule for everyone. He’s specifically talking about people who think it’s too much work to have children. It’s that attitude he is calling selfish. And it is. If your primary concern is “I don’t want to do the work of raising kids,” that’s selfish. It’s about you and yourself. Whether that kind of selfishness is wrong depends on the circumstances. But it is selfish. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/90 "2015-02-16T12:54:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So even after the context has been given, none of you guys are reading it? It’s not a general rule for everyone. He’s specifically talking about people who think it’s too much work to have children. It’s that attitude he is calling selfish. > > And it is. If your primary concern is “I don’t want to do the work of raising kids,” that’s selfish. It’s about you and yourself. Whether that kind of selfishness is wrong depends on the circumstances. But it is selfish. I don’t want to do the work required to climb Mt. Everest. Does this make me selfish? Or just someone who’d rather put energy towards something else? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/91 "2015-02-16T17:33:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t want to do the work required to climb Mt. Everest. > > Does this make me selfish? Or just someone who’d rather put energy towards something else? A nun character did sing “Climb Every Mountain”, but it did not represent the views of the Catholic Church, which has been silent on the matter of climbing Mount Everest. Couples who are married in the Church, however, have done so with the openness to any children that might come. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/92 "2015-02-17T14:31:35Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > I’ve been thinking about this lately. In so many books and movies, liking and wanting kids is shorthand for being a good, loving, generous, and kind person, and not wanting kids is shorthand for being a selfish person, who is probably a villain in other ways. As I knew when i was 18 already that I didn’t want kids, this shorthand bugs me. Liking and wanting kids are two different things. Yes, generally speaking, if someone doesn’t like kids it isn’t a very positive commentary on their personality - just like any other form of misanthropy. The same is true for those who dislike women, men, or the elderly as a generality. OTOH, there are any number of reasons why people may like kids just fine, but not want any themselves; there is no reason to suppose that, just because someone does not want kids, they are a misanthrope. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/93 "2015-02-17T15:35:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Liking and wanting kids are two different things. > > Yes, generally speaking, if someone doesn’t like kids it isn’t a very positive commentary on their personality - just like any other form of misanthropy. The same is true for those who dislike women, men, or the elderly as a generality. > > OTOH, there are any number of reasons why people may like kids just fine, but not want any themselves; there is no reason to suppose that, just because someone does not want kids, they are a misanthrope. Amen. When I was in the eighth grade my Mom gave birth again; we went through the next several years of my new brother’s babyhood and early childhood. As wonderful as parenthood may be to others, I decided, early on in high school, that it was not for me; and that’s how it turned out. In fact all three of my siblings have children–who are grown, and some of them have kids of their own. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/94 "2015-02-17T15:46:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Liking and wanting kids are two different things. > > Yes, generally speaking, if someone doesn’t like kids it isn’t a very positive commentary on their personality - just like any other form of misanthropy. The same is true for those who dislike women, men, or the elderly as a generality. > > OTOH, there are any number of reasons why people may like kids just fine, but not want any themselves; there is no reason to suppose that, just because someone does not want kids, they are a misanthrope. I disagree. I don’t think one’s dislikes or likes are an indictment of one’s character. No one wills themselves to like or dislike something. It just kind of happens. I don’t mind children, but I don’t especially lurve them. I don’t mind old people, but I don’t especially lurve them. I don’t mind most people, but I am not a “people person”. This doesn’t make me a good or bad person (there are plenty of people of absolutely LURVE kids but who are vile and nasty). It just makes me a person who has preferences. To me, what separates a person with a unfavorable personality from an favorable one is how expressive and frank they are with their unsolicited opinions. A person who doesn’t like kids would be wise not to say so in front of parents and children. And if such a person is asked why they are childless, it doesn’t hurt anyone for them to say it’s because they just don’t want to be a parent, rather than laying the “blame” on the awfulness of children. If a person can’t keep their mouth shut and be tactful, then they are a jerk. But feelings alone don’t make a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/95 "2015-02-17T16:28:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I disagree. I don’t think one’s dislikes or likes are an indictment of one’s character. No one wills themselves to like or dislike something. It just kind of happens. > > I don’t mind children, but I don’t especially lurve them. I don’t mind old people, but I don’t especially lurve them. I don’t mind most people, but I am not a “people person”. This doesn’t make me a good or bad person (there are plenty of people of absolutely LURVE kids but who are vile and nasty). It just makes me a person who has preferences. > > To me, what separates a person with a unfavorable personality from an favorable one is how expressive and frank they are with their unsolicited opinions. A person who doesn’t like kids would be wise not to say so in front of parents and children. And if such a person is asked why they are childless, it doesn’t hurt anyone for them to say it’s because they just don’t want to be a parent, rather than laying the “blame” on the awfulness of children. If a person can’t keep their mouth shut and be tactful, then they are a jerk. But feelings alone don’t make a jerk. Being a misanthrope isn’t an indictment of someone’s _morality_, but it is a negative character trait. Why should it come as a surprise and disapointment that disliking some group of people as people is not generally viewed as a good and positive thing, and has generally negative associations? It is the same as (say) having a generally negative outlook. People do no will themselves into being pessimists, or misanthropes, or whatever; it does not make them immoral; but it isn’t generally considered positive. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/96 "2015-02-17T16:55:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Being a misanthrope isn’t an indictment of someone’s _morality_, but it is a negative character trait. No, acting like a misanthrope is an indictment of someone’s character. Disliking people, but behaving in a way that doesn’t show this, is a positive character trait. For years I used to beat myself up over not liking the things that everyone else seems to enjoy. I forced myself to do things I didn’t want to do, in hopes that I could change myself. In some areas, I was successful. But not in everything. I think an assessment of my character should be based on my efforts to evolve as a person. Not on something I have ultimately no control over. You may decide that you don’t want to hang around a person who doesn’t share your feelings about something. But I don’t think you’d have sufficient information to lambaste their character based just on this. There are a lot of people who act in loving ways, who don’t feel love. Surely those people are just as worthy of respect as the folks who feel love, but can’t be arsed to act on it (e.g., parents who swear they love their kids and everyone else’s, but who beat the shit out of them). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/97 "2015-02-17T17:06:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No, acting like a misanthrope is an indictment of someone’s character. > > Disliking people, but behaving in a way that doesn’t show this, is a positive character trait. > > For years I used to beat myself up over not liking the things that everyone else seems to enjoy. I forced myself to do things I didn’t want to do, in hopes that I could change myself. In some areas, I was successful. But not in everything. I think an assessment of my character should be based on my efforts to evolve as a person. Not on something I have ultimately no control over. > > You may decide that you don’t want to hang around a person who doesn’t share your feelings about something. But I don’t think you’d have sufficient information to lambaste their character based just on this. There are a lot of people who act in loving ways, who don’t feel love. Surely those people are just as worthy of respect as the folks who feel love, but can’t be arsed to act on it (e.g., parents who swear they love their kids and everyone else’s, but who beat the shit out of them). If you dislike a group of people, or people generally, but don’t show it, or tell others, how would they ever know to disaprove? The dislike for the character trait is, typically, linked to a _display_ of the character trait. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/98 "2015-02-17T17:16:20Z")
I don’t understand, and never did, why the Pope and other religious figures don’t speak more on \* planned parenthopod\*. Not an “abortion clinic” which it most definitely is not, but the act of planning your parenthood. You can’t just keep having babies. It’s nice to think that God will provide but evidence has shown he doesn’t. Plan your families! Have children but make sure you can afford them! Don’t have a third child to try to fix your marriage! But nope, it’s all “If you don’t want the work of having children, you’re selfish.” What if you already have one child? I am a big proponent of only children - you can give them a lot more than if you have multiples. They’re not puppies; you don’t have to have 3 or 4 do it right. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/99 "2015-02-17T17:23:26Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > But I prefer an alternative view which states: “By not having children I’m not adding to the resource consumption of the planet by humans.” You can probably guess whether or not I have kids. I suspect that the Pope was specifically repudiating this view, that sees human beings primarily as resource consumers. In the view of the Catholic Church as I understand it (IANAC), every human being has value, and bringing a new person into the world is a net good rather than a net evil. I also think the Pope would draw a distinction between a choice specifically not to have children, vs. other choices whose natural result is that you don’t have children (e.g. the choice to become a priest). I would never criticize a particular person or couple for not having children. For some, it’s the right choice, or at least one perfectly legitimate choice (and of course for others it’s not a choice at all). But it’s clear to me that choosing not to have children _can be_ a selfish choice; and that the unselfishness shown by good, loving, self-sacrificing parents is a Good Thing. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449/100 "2015-02-17T17:26:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If you dislike a group of people, or people generally, but don’t show it, or tell others, how would they ever know to disaprove? Well, if someone were to ask me if I like children, I wouldn’t lie and say “yes”. I’d tell the truth. “No, I don’t particularly like kids. I like _some_ kids, but not all kids.” I suppose someone can infer something negative about me based on this, but I’d infer something negative about them if they did this. > [@](#): > > The dislike for the character trait is, typically, linked to a _display_ of the character trait. Right. But you implied someone who doesn’t like children doesn’t display a positive personality. I’m challenging you on this, because it is very possible to dislike something and not have it be a part of ones outward personality. If someone told me they don’t like kids in a private moment, but they still manage to get along with kids fabulously, I don’t see the point in judging this person in a negative way. YMMV. The same reasons that people love kids (their playfulness, honesty, their messiness, their helplessness) are the same reasons they are unpleasant to be around. So it’s not irrational to dislike children (read: people exhibiting “childish behaviors”) like it is to dislike, say, Jews or black people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-francis-says-not-having-children-is-selfish/712449.md?page=6)