# Pope John Paul II is not deserving of sainthood **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120 "2014-04-27T15:36:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/21 "2014-04-27T20:45:41Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Er, aren’t the child rapists among the ones picking saints? If I were a child rapist, I’d think my protectors were saints too. Sainthood is decided by the members of the [Congregation for the Causes of the Saints.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Members_of_the_Congregation_for_the_Causes_of_Saints) I’ll let you do the research on its members. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/22 "2014-04-27T21:07:42Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s funny. When I learned of his canonization, I told my husband that I thought he was an odd choice for sainthood, not because I think he was evil (not really a fan, but I don’t think he was a monster or anything), but because he didn’t really have the aura of saintliness/holiness that makes the canonization feel legitimate. > > In other words, it feels like it’s just because he was popular, not because people are convinced he was saintly. The thing is, you may have causes for canonization not just for a reputation of embodying high personal virtue, but also for a reputation of “doing God’s work” in an unrighteous world. Let’s remember the plackards and choruses of “Santo Subito!” in St. Peter’s Square during his funeral ceremonies, JP2’s fans WANTED canonization because they felt JP2 was awesome as Pope, not because they felt he was especially holy as an individual, and to validate their own positions about his politics and policies. Francis had a large segment of “the base” as well as the permanent institution rallying for JP2’s canonization and he could never get rid of them. The best he could do was “balance the ticket” by grabbing the long-stalled cause of beloved, but not fanatically-lobbied-for, John XXIII and ramming it up the Congregation so that they’d both get elevated at the same time, the guy who started the liberalizing reforms of VatII together with the guy who “cracked down on excesses”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/23 "2014-04-27T21:11:15Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > If Dante were writing the Inferno today, I have no doubt John Paul II would make into one of the circles of Hell. [Circle 8, Bolgia 8?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante%27s_Inferno#Eighth_Circle_.28Fraud.29) ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/24 "2014-04-28T00:19:47Z")
What makes a bird? Wings right? Women who want to become priests and gays who want perpetual spotlights and confetti should look for another religion. ---
**Author:** ![NeonMadman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@NeonMadman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeonMadman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/25 "2014-04-28T00:21:53Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Well, they’d have to be on board with abortion and gay marriage, for a start. So, in order for one to qualify for sainthood, he would have to espouse a position diametrically opposed to the historic and current position of the organization that is conferring sainthood upon him? Do you also believe that the membership of the Westboro Baptist Church should be allowed to determine the makeup of the leadership of the Democratic Party? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/26 "2014-04-28T00:32:39Z")
One does wonder whether Benedict XVI or Francis ever will be sainted. Which one gets the honor will say something very significant about the state of the Church at that time. If **both** get it, it will be a sign the Church has gone completely schizo. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/27 "2014-04-28T01:00:17Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > What makes a bird? Wings right? Women who want to become priests and gays who want perpetual spotlights and confetti should look for another religion. I agree with this, more or less: I agree about 90% with the Catholic teaching against abortion (I’d make medical exceptions, but that’s about it), I more weakly support their position about women priests, and while I don’t really agree with their view about homosexuality, it isn’t something I feel strongly about one way or the other. On the other hand, I still don’t think JP II should be a saint, because he presided over the church sex abuse scandals, a problem that was truly monumental in scope and has damaged both the victims, and the moral authority of the church, for a long time to come. He could be entirely on the side of the angels when it comes to doctrinal teaching, and he would still bear a heavy responsibility for the abuse scandals. I’m not Catholic, of course, so my opinion doesn’t really count for much. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/28 "2014-04-28T01:40:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One does wonder whether Benedict XVI or Francis ever will be sainted. Canonized. The term is canonized, not sainted. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/29 "2014-04-28T01:44:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One does wonder whether Benedict XVI or Francis ever will be sainted. … Any other Nazi saints? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/30 "2014-04-28T01:50:09Z")
“Sainted” Constantine I drowned one of his wives in her bath. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/31 "2014-04-28T02:07:32Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Canonized. The term is canonized, not sainted. “Sainted” is a British usage. I recall when Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (reluctantly) brought Sherlock Holmes back from the dead, a fan wrote, “He should not have been knighted, he should have been sainted!” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/32 "2014-04-28T02:10:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > To contrast, despite my utter contempt and disregard for Mother Teresa, she had a lot of people convinced she was saintly. She had the perception of a sort of holiness that JPJ2 never seemed to have. (I was a Catholic during most of his papacy.) 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/33 "2014-04-28T02:51:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > To contrast, despite my utter contempt and disregard for Mother Teresa, she had a lot of people convinced she was saintly. She had the perception of a sort of holiness that JPJ2 never seemed to have. (I was a Catholic during most of his papacy.) > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > 😕 I know what she means. I’ve read quite a bit of uncomplimentary stuff on her. Nothing specific springs to mind, and I can’t be arsed to do a Google search on it, but it’s out there if you look. Not everyone is convinced she was a saint. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/34 "2014-04-28T06:25:13Z")
To put it briefly, Mother Teresa had a – let’s call it “reverence” – for suffering that her detractors claim led to increased suffering for those under her care. Much money passed through her hands and into church coffers that could have built better facilities, procured real medical treatment, or alleviated pain, but “suffering is holy.” ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/35 "2014-04-28T06:31:56Z")
Missed the edit. She was also fully in line with the Church’s opposition to contraception. Defenders point out that her hospices only provided palliative care for the dying, and that opiates for this purpose were illegal for her entire career. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/36 "2014-04-28T08:05:01Z")
As I understand it, the Church does not “make” someone a saint. A saint is anyone who is currently in Heaven, and the act of canonization is simply a formal recognition of that status. So to say that JP2 “doesn’t deserve to be a saint” is essentially a declaration that he’s not in Heaven, which isn’t a statement I believe I have enough insider information to make. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/37 "2014-04-28T09:54:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > **As I understand it, the Church does not “make” someone a saint. A saint is anyone who is currently in Heaven, and the act of canonization is simply a formal recognition of that status.** So to say that JP2 “doesn’t deserve to be a saint” is essentially a declaration that he’s not in Heaven, which isn’t a statement I believe I have enough insider information to make. Yes, we had a rather more detailed discussion of this point about a year ago, in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=685978), posts #8 to about #15. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/38 "2014-04-28T10:44:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > As I understand it, the Church does not “make” someone a saint. A saint is anyone who is currently in Heaven, and the act of canonization is simply a formal recognition of that status. So to say that JP2 “doesn’t deserve to be a saint” is essentially a declaration that he’s not in Heaven, which isn’t a statement I believe I have enough insider information to make. Here on Earth, though, the term means someone you think is so holy that your are sure they are in heaven. That’s why not every Catholic gets canonized, despite them all hoping to get into heaven. So all the OP is saying is that they don’t think JPII is holy enough to be sure he’s in heaven now. (I’m not sure if purgatory enters in any more. I thought it did, but Bricker has been disabusing me of much ignorance on Catholicism, despite what I learned in college through reading the Catechism and going to mass with my roommate. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/39 "2014-04-28T11:06:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **RivkahChayah** : Therefore, I have no opinion, and I don’t think it’s my place to have one. It has no bearing on my life whatsoever who has the title “saint.” So you typed a post just to say that you have nothing to say? > [@](#): > > **NeonMadman:** So, in order for one to qualify for sainthood, he would have to espouse a position diametrically opposed to the historic and current position of the organization that is conferring sainthood upon him? **THIS.** These are teachings of the Catholic church. Why would we expect him to promote any other perspective? And why would the chuch honor someone who promoted the opposite of what they believe? Catechism teaches that someone who fundamentally opposes the church’s teachings isn’t fit to receive the most basic sacraments, much less hold positions of power and honor. In other news, Ray Odierno announced he will join Code Pink, Ann Coulter and Diane Feinstein got married, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad celebrated his son’s Bar Mitzvah, and A-Rod has switched to homeopathy. What a world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120/40 "2014-04-28T11:09:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Francis had a large segment of “the base” as well as the permanent institution rallying for JP2’s canonization and he could never get rid of them. The best he could do was “balance the ticket” by grabbing the long-stalled cause of beloved, but not fanatically-lobbied-for, John XXIII and ramming it up the Congregation so that they’d both get elevated at the same time, the guy who started the liberalizing reforms of VatII together with the guy who “cracked down on excesses”. Underline mine. You know, I keep seeing that everywhere, when the fact is JPII was a freaking (A)n(A)rkist compared with Paul VI. He was extremely popular for moving to the left of PVI (although not as much as many think JPI would have) and because for the first time he made use of modern means of travel; for the first time in a very, very long time, the Fisherman was going in pilgrimage to his people instead of the people going to him. His failing health did more to lessen his popularity than the sexual abuses scandals, which did a lot but never corroded it completely (and btw, why are so many people in this thread talk about the pedophilia ones exclusively? They’re not the only ones). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-john-paul-ii-is-not-deserving-of-sainthood/687120.md?page=3)