# Pope Ratzi **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086 "2005-04-19T17:22:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/121 "2005-04-19T20:19:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re absolutely right. If everyone listened to the Church’s teachings on sexual morality, there would not be an AIDS crisis, or at least, it would be vastly reduced. Here’s the thing: **nobody is listening.** They haven’t listened in the past, they aren’t listening right now, and they aren’t going to start listening any time real soon. But if people aren’t listening to what the Catholic Church says when they say, “Don’t have pre or extramarital sex”, they probably aren’t listening when it says “Don’t use a condom” either. Right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/122 "2005-04-19T20:19:40Z")
I find it hard to blame the Catholic Church for AIDS in Africa. AIDS is the problem it is there because people are poor and uneducated, not because they are Catholic. And they are poor and uneducated because of the despotic governments there. If a guy is going to have extramarital sex, often with a prostitute, I doubt that the Church’s position on condom usage is an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/123 "2005-04-19T20:19:48Z")
Don’t be an ass. The quoted post was pointing out that it is possible to get HIV and still be following the moral teachings of the church. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/124 "2005-04-19T20:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Here’s the thing: **nobody is listening**. Then you seem to be awfully upset about what the church might say, given that **nobody is listening** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/125 "2005-04-19T20:20:54Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well I sure hope your having sex only for procreation Bricker… if you’re such a good catholic No, I’m having sex for good, sweaty fun. And why not? There’s no rule in Catholicism that says I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/126 "2005-04-19T20:21:47Z")
> [@cheddarsnax](#): > > I don’t know who is a Catholic around here, so perhaps they have already addressed this and I just don’t know it. That said, I’d like to hear what the SDMB Catholics think about Ratzinger. I’ve already said it: Disappointed. More of the same conservative doctrine and unwillingness to address the endemic problems of the church: lack of equal status for women and the celibate clergy \>\>\> pedophilia dynamic. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/127 "2005-04-19T20:22:53Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Haven’t you figured it out yet? Everything is the Church’s fault, except for the things that are George W. Bush’s fault. So which one do we get to blame for you? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/128 "2005-04-19T20:23:11Z")
Hmmm…I very, very much dislike the former Cardinal Ratziger. But I was prepared to give him a chance to prove himself in the See of Peter before criticizing. One quick question of those who are defending him, however: While still Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he [formally declared](http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=7056&eng=y) that Sen. John Kerry should be excommunicated, and is _alleged_ to have issued instructions that so should all who voted for him. (There is no link to a reliable source for that allegation; I merely report it as having been alleged by questionable sources.) Do you propose to defend him for intervening in the American presidential election of 2004? ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/129 "2005-04-19T20:24:32Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > So which one do we get to blame for you? Whichever one we don’t use to blame for you. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/130 "2005-04-19T20:24:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I’m having sex for good, sweaty fun. > > And why not? There’s no rule in Catholicism that says I can’t. Oh yes, there is. Read that CCC excerpt that **stpauler** so kindly presented us. If you aren’t doing it at least in part with the intention of conceiving, you’re violating the teachings of Mother Church. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/131 "2005-04-19T20:25:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I know you don’t. But that’s because you don’t believe that Jesus Christ was the divine Son of God, that he appointed Peter as the first Pope of His Church on Earth, that each suceeding Pope has been chosen by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and that the Church teaches infalliably on matters of faith and morals. > > I do. Setting aside the how ludicrous it is to apply the term ‘infallibly’ to decision made by flesh and blood human beings, you are missing the point. Infallibility cuts both ways. If a Pope were take a look at the situation, pray over it a bit, and decide that God’s will is for people to use condoms, his decision would _by definition_ be infallibility, and you could wrap your weasel with God’s blessing. What you are arguing for is not Church doctrine, but a particular doctrine that suits your taste. If the doctrine were to change, remaining infallible all the while, could you change with it? ---
**Author:** ![fiercesheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@fiercesheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiercesheep)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/132 "2005-04-19T20:25:14Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Considering how much the church actively works against me, then why shouldn’t I push back? Out of interest, how exactly does the church work against you? If you don’t believe, and assuming that you don’t live in Africa so the whole 'the RCC is to blame for AIDS argument is moot, how can anything the church preaches possibly affect your life? Don’t get me wrong; push back by all means but I really think that you’re givng the RCC too much credit. Oh and this is just mho but is the vitriolic catholic bashing really necessary? To my mind it’s no more acceptable than the ‘Islam bashing’ that was so popular during the Iraq war. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/133 "2005-04-19T20:27:25Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > But if people aren’t listening to what the Catholic Church says when they say, “Don’t have pre or extramarital sex”, they probably aren’t listening when it says “Don’t use a condom” either. Right? This particular argument has bothered me for some time. See, the act of buying a condom is an act of premeditation. While it can be said that sexual intercourse can be premeditated, it is very often an act of spontaneous passion. My take is that it is easier to “sin” if it is just some moment that you get caught up in than it is to pre plan it. That aside, I think that what it boils down to for a lot of people is that we have trouble understanding how the Catholic Church, with all of its vast resources, is not doing everything that it can do and spreading all of the knowledge that we have to save lives. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/134 "2005-04-19T20:28:35Z")
[CDC estimated HIV+ births in the US in 2000](http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/r020707b.htm) > [@](#): > > The CDC study estimates that 280 to 370 infants were born infected with HIV in the United States in 2000. Odds of transmitting HIV in utero are about 5-15% depending on if you can get preventative medication(which many African women can not). Odds of transmittal through breastfeeding are about 20%(many African women can not afford or do not have formula available). From the same site above “approximately 129,500 to 135,300 women [in the US], ages 13 to 44 years, were living with HIV infection in 2000.” This works out to be a ratio of approximately 0.27 % to Mother To Child Transmission(MTCT). Well under the average chances biologically. [The UN Programme on AIDS](http://www.unaids.org/NetTools/Misc/DocInfo.aspx?LANG=en&href=http://gva-doc-owl/WEBcontent/Documents/pub/Media/Press-Releases02/PR_EpiLaunch_23Nov04_en.pdf) estimated in 2004 that 13.3 million women in Africa are infected. So you’ve got roughly two orders of magnitude more women infected in Africa than the US. Just taking those same two orders of magnitude and applying them to the rate of HIV+ births in the US would yield approximately 28,000 to 37,000 HIV+ births in Africa per year. This number is probably nearly yet another order of magnitude lower than the actual figure for several reasons. Recall that the actual percentages of MTCT in the US were well below the average of 5-15% and did not account for breastfeeding by HIV+ mothers at all. So, a very conservative estimate yields between 28,000 and 37,000 HIV+ births per year. A more accurate estimate would be about a quarter-million babies infected per year. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/135 "2005-04-19T20:29:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For the two men and one woman I know personally, it appears to be the right choice, reached after prayerful consideration. I don’t say it’s the workable choice for all, but neither is it impossble for anyone to achieve. If it’s not a workable choice for all, how can it be appropriate doctrine for a universal church? Are some just not supposed to be saved? ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/136 "2005-04-19T20:32:28Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > You tell me why you think he’s NOT a good man and we’ll go from there. I can think of a few million people offhand who would disagree with you. Come on, now. Numerous examples and links have already been given in this thread. Not letting German Catholics and Lutherans pray together? That sounds like a shitty thing to do. I’m not going to hold Ratzinger personally responsible for the Church’s many (IMO) errant views on human sexuality, the role of women, etc. However, I don’t think this gentleman’s past behavior exactly screams ‘filled with the love of Christ’. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/137 "2005-04-19T20:32:37Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Oh yes, there is. Read that CCC excerpt that **stpauler** so kindly presented us. If you aren’t doing it at least in part with the intention of conceiving, you’re violating the teachings of Mother Church. My interpretation of that is that as long as there is no barrier to a possible conception, having sex for good sweaty fun is cool. So to speak. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/138 "2005-04-19T20:35:28Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Oh yes, there is. Read that CCC excerpt that **stpauler** so kindly presented us. If you aren’t doing it at least in part with the intention of conceiving, you’re violating the teachings of Mother Church. The only intention required is to “be open” to procreation. As long as a couple does not interfere with the procreative process, the church doesn’t care whether they are trying to breed or simply trying to work off the day’s tensions–or even just reveling in the joy of sex. There is no requirement to _intend_ to breed on each occasion. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/139 "2005-04-19T20:36:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I find it hard to blame the Catholic Church for AIDS in Africa. AIDS is the problem it is there because people are poor and uneducated, not because they are Catholic. And they are poor and uneducated because of the despotic governments there. If a guy is going to have extramarital sex, often with a prostitute, I doubt that the Church’s position on condom usage is an issue. I’m not blaming the Church for AIDS. I simply want people to stop blaming the disease on extramartial sex with prostitutes and waving off any solution; because it goes against Church rules, especially when he could have just as easy gotten it from blood on an immunization injection, still go home and infect his wife. What’s the answer for that? Someone tell me the answer, cause all I see is a bunch of guys claiming to believe in the Word, casing judgements on people they shouldn’t be judging. A while back in different thread **Bricker** mentioned that condom use, was within Church doctrine if used to prevent disease. Isn’t that the answer? Instead we have the Church and guys here focusing **solely** on people breaking Church rules, getting sick and that “being on them”. There is a way to reduce this problem and do it within Church doctrine, but it will never happen as long as we make this primarily an issue about infidelity and we are surrounded by such little men…pointed white hat or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/140 "2005-04-19T20:37:19Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > Come on, now. Numerous examples and links have already been given in this thread. Not letting German Catholics and Lutherans pray together? That sounds like a shitty thing to do. That’s not what happened. Cardinal Ratzinger objected to joint communion, not joint prayer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086.md?page=8)