# Pope Ratzi **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086 "2005-04-19T17:22:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/161 "2005-04-19T21:02:59Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Then why post it if you thought it had no meaning? Oh, and I never said it had “no meaning” either. You’re really trying to read stuff that isn’t there, aren’t ya? ---
**Author:** ![Mithril](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mithril/32/3517_2.png) [@Mithril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithril)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/162 "2005-04-19T21:05:22Z")
> [@](#): > > In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, **shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941**. I’ve been hearing about this all day. He was 14, and it was compulsory. How many people really had the strength of morals at 14 to refuse to join something that all boys of that age were in? Especially after his mother had been taken to a concentration camp, I think we can forgive a fourteen year old boy for being afraid of what the Nazis would do to him. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/163 "2005-04-19T21:06:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that need is stronger than than your belief that the Church is, in fact, the true Church established by Christ and teaches infalliably on faith and morals… then you probably shouldn’t be a Catholic. I don’t see what’s so complicated about this. What complicates it is that the Church is ACTIVELY attempting to limit my equality and freedom in my nation and is fighting against any sort of legal recognition of my basic humanity. If the Church would leave me alone, I would leave it alone. And you grossly overstate the reach of the church’s infallibility. Not everything the church says regarding morality is automatically infallible. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/164 "2005-04-19T21:14:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that need is stronger than than your belief that the Church is, in fact, the true Church established by Christ and teaches infalliably on faith and morals… then you probably shouldn’t be a Catholic. I don’t see what’s so complicated about this. The Church LIED in Africa. [It propogated the lie that the condom is useless against spreading the virus](http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/165 "2005-04-19T21:15:13Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Oh, and I never said it had “no meaning” either. You’re really trying to read stuff that isn’t there, aren’t ya? I’m trying to figure out why you posted that, that’s all. Was it meant to be a slur? 'Cause even for me, it doesn’t work as a slur. If it wasn’t meant to be a slur, then why bother? **Homebrew** , he was either 14 (HY) or 16(Army). He was young, unformed. I can’t get bent out of shape about it. And I honestly don’t understand why anyone would. The man he’s turned into is someone I can get bent out of shape about, not the teenager in a difficult time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/166 "2005-04-19T21:15:26Z")
I need to note that Ratfinker’s Hitler Youth stint doesn’t even bother me, given that it was compulsory at the time, and I certainly don’t expect an average 14-year-old to have the strength of will to resist cultural forces, especially in Nazi Germany. That, and every time I think of Ratfinker in a Nazi uniform (which, contrary to scurrilous and false rumor, is rarely), I see Sergeant Schultz, not Hermann Goering… ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/167 "2005-04-19T21:17:31Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > What complicates it is that the Church is ACTIVELY attempting to limit my equality and freedom in my nation and is fighting against any sort of legal recognition of my basic humanity. If the Church would leave me alone, I would leave it alone. > > And you grossly overstate the reach of the church’s infallibility. Not everything the church says regarding morality is automatically infallible. See… Bricker, Airman, and their ilk doln’t care that non Catholics are affected by the oppression and bigotry of their Pope. That the Pope’s actions and edicts cause and reinforce oppression to those outside their faith is unimportant. That the Catholic Church actively works to abolish abortions for EVERYONE and works to keep gay men and lesbians as targets for scorn and ‘conversion’ is a good thing to them. Better to be a dogmatlic zombie than think for oneself and find your own answers to spirituality. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/168 "2005-04-19T21:24:29Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I’m trying to figure out why you posted that, that’s all. Was it meant to be a slur? 'Cause even for me, it doesn’t work as a slur. If it wasn’t meant to be a slur, then why bother? Lesse, I quote a current article and alter the title of the article from “Papal hopeful” to Joseph Ratzinger (while still keeping the real title of the article in the quote). Was the article not factual? Was the title misleading in some way? So why are you digging at it as a slur or are you just being oversensitive about it? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/169 "2005-04-19T21:27:13Z")
> [@Mithril](#): > > I’ve been hearing about this all day. He was 14, and it was compulsory. How many people really had the strength of morals at 14 to refuse to join something that all boys of that age were in? Especially after his mother had been taken to a concentration camp, I think we can forgive a fourteen year old boy for being afraid of what the Nazis would do to him. Thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But maybe their faith was just stronger and their convictions deeper. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/170 "2005-04-19T21:28:20Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > See… Bricker, Airman, and their ilk doln’t care that non Catholics are affected by the oppression and bigotry of their Pope. That’s not true at all. I’m not prepared to condemn a man for what he hasn’t done. I’m also not prepared to say that the Church is wrong in all matters. I am allowed to pick and choose appropriately. That is why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, because I believe that they ARE wrong about some things. But you wouldn’t know that, nor would you care because you’re a shrill little harpy who can’t see past his own nose. I’d give you the beat-down here myself but it’s been done so many times that it’s like trying to teach a pig to sing. This man has done nothing as Pope to warrant criticism. My God, man, even **rjung** has held his tongue. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/171 "2005-04-19T21:31:46Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > One quick question of those who are defending him, however: While still Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he [formally declared](http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=7056&eng=y) that Sen. John Kerry should be excommunicated, and is _alleged_ to have issued instructions that so should all who voted for him. (There is no link to a reliable source for that allegation; I merely report it as having been alleged by questionable sources.) Do you propose to defend him for intervening in the American presidential election of 2004? I’m not really “defending” him, but I as I read your cite, he was forced to navigate between bishops who wanted to deny, and those who wanted to grant, communion. Given the relevant canon law cited in the [actual memo](http://www.defide.com/documentation.html) (scroll down), and if we grant that that abortion is “a manifest grave sin,” he didn’t seem to have much wiggle room. Nonetheless, he does say of withholding communion that > [@Ratzi](#): > > This decision, properly speaking, is not a sanction or a penalty. Nor is the minister of Holy Communion passing judgement on the person’s subjective guilt, but rather is reacting to the person’s public unworthiness to receive Holy Communion due to an objective situation of sin. Which I take as saying that it just don’t look good to be givin’ the wafers to someone in open defiance. And contrary to the rumor you cite above, he went out of his way to leave a pretty big loophole: > [@](#): > > [N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.] ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/172 "2005-04-19T21:34:10Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > This man has done nothing as Pope to warrant criticism. My God, man, even **rjung** has held his tongue. Well he has shown what he is before being a pope… or should we give him a 100% clean sheet ? I don’t think putting papal robes will change him 100%. Also his choice as the new pope almost certainly means a more conservative and hard line Catholic Church. Should we be obliged to wait 30 days until he does something hardline to start analyzing things ? BTW Rjung probably had a dentist’s apointment today… ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/173 "2005-04-19T21:38:31Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > There is a monumental difference between “self control” and complete denial of one’s human need for sexual intimacy and the longing for physical relations with a person whom you love. Yes, there is. I suspect that I personally know this better than most people. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/174 "2005-04-19T21:38:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > that each suceeding Pope has been chosen by the guidance of the Holy Spirit Then why do they have to vote for a new one? Surely if it’s a divine decision, God will speak to every Cardinal and the vote would be unanimous. So since the votes usually aren’t unanimous, are the Cardinals who voted against the winner immediately stricken of their high position, seeing as how God does not truly speak to them? I would certainly hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/175 "2005-04-19T21:40:16Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well I sure hope your having sex only for procreation Bricker… if you’re such a good catholic And I also hope you’ve never received oral sex from your wife, because that would make you a sodomite. Or is that a definition people have chosen to conveniently change so that only gays are sinful? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/176 "2005-04-19T21:45:30Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > What complicates it is that the Church is ACTIVELY attempting to limit my equality and freedom in my nation and is fighting against any sort of legal recognition of my basic humanity. If the Church would leave me alone, I would leave it alone. > > And you grossly overstate the reach of the church’s infallibility. Not everything the church says regarding morality is automatically infallible. Nor did I intend to imply it was. The Church’s teaching on matters of faith and morals is infalliable when it is universal, and calls for assent on the part of the faithful. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/177 "2005-04-19T21:49:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Then you seem to be awfully upset about what the church might say, given that **nobody is listening** I said no one is listening _to that message._ Maybe they’ll be more receptive to a different one. I never said the Church had no influence at all, I said they should be using their influence more effectively. > [@bricker](#): > > If that need is stronger than than your belief that the Church is, in fact, the true Church established by Christ and teaches infalliably on faith and morals… then you probably shouldn’t be a Catholic. I don’t see what’s so complicated about this. > > If you believe that the Church is, in fact, the true Church established by Christ and teaches infalliably on faith and morals, then you must conform your desires to the path taught by that Church. Do you believe that there should be no mechanism or movement for change within the Church at all? That anyone who has a principle that clashes with Catholic doctrine should be required to abandon either the principle or the Church? If Ratzinger had a revelation tonight and tomorrow announed that the Catholic Church would support abortion, would you leave the Church, or try to change its policies back to what you believe to be moral? > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > But if people aren’t listening to what the Catholic Church says when they say, “Don’t have pre or extramarital sex”, they probably aren’t listening when it says “Don’t use a condom” either. Right? Oh, they probably are. It’s much easier to obey rules that you don’t want to break in the first place, and condoms can be a bit of a nuisance. The only reason anyone puts one on in the first place is because they’ve got a good idea of the consequences of not using them at all. And the Church is in a unique position to get that information out there, if it weren’t shooting itself in the foot by tying that information to an abstinence-only message. I’m not saying the Church shouldn’t preach abstience from the pulpit. That’s fine. But if they want to actually help people in the here-and-now, especially in Africa, they need to start teaching safe sex practices. As it is now, they’re putting doctrine ahead of the welfare of their congregants, and I understand Jesus had some pretty harsh words for people who do that. When I was a teenager, my parents were very firm about me not drinking. I was never, ever, under any circumstances to allow a drop of alcohol past my lips. _But if I did…_ and I needed a ride home, I could call them, and they’d give me one, no questions asked. You can work to limit the consequences of breaking a rule without undermining the rule itself. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/178 "2005-04-19T21:50:13Z")
I just wanted to say that I wish the thread title had been “Papa Ratzi”. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/179 "2005-04-19T21:51:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Which contradicts the teachings of Jesus by placing the sterility of written law above both practicality and compassion. Jesus made a point of breaking laws to serve a greater good. It was “evil” for him to heal on the Sabbath, for instance. Silly person, the Church pays no attention to the teachings of that “Jesus” guy. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086/180 "2005-04-19T21:51:28Z")
[QUOTE=Rashak Mani] Well he has shown what he is before being a pope… or should we give him a 100% clean sheet ?..QUOTE] We are supposed to ignore that, otherwise it would be more difficult to paint us as unreasonable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-ratzi/300086.md?page=10)