# Pope Says Evolution and The Big Bang Are Real **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 29, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894 "2014-10-29T11:50:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/1 "2014-10-29T11:50:46Z")
I know other Popes have alluded to some of this - but [this](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html) at least feels like a big deal. I’m not Catholic - but my wife is and we raise our kids Catholic. So I’m very happy to see the Church embrace accepted science. Kudo’s to the Pope!!! ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/2 "2014-10-29T12:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because **evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve**.” > … > Yet more recently, Benedict XVI and his close advisors have apparently endorsed the idea that **intelligent design underpins evolution** Isn’t ID the same as creationism, only in pseudo-scientific terms? I think he is still weaseling. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/3 "2014-10-29T12:21:30Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > Isn’t ID the same as creationism, only in pseudo-scientific terms? I think he is still weaseling. You want the Pope, the leader of the Catholic church, to come out and say that god had nothing to do with the universe and why people are in it? ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/4 "2014-10-29T12:23:34Z")
What I want is a clear renunciation of the “God created humans separately in their present form” nonsense that I keep hearing from quite a few followers of this man. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/5 "2014-10-29T12:28:35Z")
> [@Kiber](#): > > I know other Popes have alluded to some of this - but [this](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html) at least feels like a big deal. This has been part of the teachings of the Catholic church for decades. I remember a workbook in Sunday school back in the mid-80s expressly referencing The Big Bang Theory as something all Catholics should believe because it jives perfectly with God as “the creator of the heavens and the Earth.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/6 "2014-10-29T12:42:32Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > What I want is a clear renunciation of the “God created humans separately in their present form” nonsense that I keep hearing from quite a few followers of this man. > [@Pope Francis](#): > > “When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said. Now, I’m not Catholic, I’m not even a theist, but that’s a mouthful right there by any standard. So if god isn’t a magician and there are limits to what he can do, then how can a mere man keep others from saying foolish things? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/7 "2014-10-29T12:47:04Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I remember a workbook in Sunday school back in the mid-80s expressly referencing The Big Bang Theory as something all Catholics should believe because it jives perfectly with God as “the creator of the heavens and the Earth.” That can’t be right! The show wasn’t even on in the mid-80s. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/8 "2014-10-29T13:08:51Z")
The Catholics have never had any serious issues with the scientific explanations for our origin and development, at least not since the Galilean days. Jesuits have been some of our greatest scientists. That they cling to an ambiguity about a prime mover being this god person instead of two random cosmic rays colliding is about their only conceit, and they’re modest about that in most discussions. The well of Christian intelligence, and the perception thereof, has been deeply and badly polluted by the jackasses of the southern Baptist stripe. It only takes so much brainless shit before the water tastes foul to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/9 "2014-10-29T13:10:33Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > This has been part of the teachings of the Catholic church for decades. I remember a workbook in Sunday school back in the mid-80s expressly referencing The Big Bang Theory as something all Catholics should believe because it jives perfectly with God as “the creator of the heavens and the Earth.” I’m not questioning your experience - but I’m having trouble finding anything saying Catholics should believe in the Big Bang Theory. The best I can find is statements saying that TBBT doesn’t necessarily conflict with a divine creator, etc. For example, from [here](http://lifeteen.com/the-big-bang-theory/): > [@Teen Life](#): > > If the Bible is not all literal, then the story of creation in the book of Genesis can fit with explanations like the big bang and evolution so long as you still believe that God was the one who first caused the creation of world. . . . . Big bang? Evolution? Seven days of creation? Don’t stress over the technicalities. God made you and I and desires for us to be in heaven with Him. That’s what’s really important. Certainly not a definitive source, but this is what the Church is using to teach teenagers on the topic. And my best interpretation isn’t the Church saying TBBT is true - just that it’s OK to believe in if you want. Now looking more broadly - here’s what [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution) has to say on the issue: > [@wiki](#): > > The Catholic Church holds no official position on the theory of creation or evolution, leaving the specifics of either theistic evolution or literal creationism to the individual within certain parameters established by the Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, any believer may accept either literal or special creation within the period of an actual six day, twenty-four hour period, or they may accept the belief that the earth evolved over time under the guidance of God. Maybe this whole thing isn’t a very big change in the Church’s stance - and instead just a gradual evolution (pun intended)? But it feels like a change from - “Ok, believe if you want.”, to instead “Yep - it’s true.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/10 "2014-10-29T13:12:10Z")
The Pope-emeritus,Benedict, years back spoke of “intelligence in the design”, but when someone from his background uses the phrase, it’s not quite the same thing an American creationist means by “Intelligent Design”, but rather a form of directionality _of evolution_ – it was more of a philosophical appeasement to his ultraconservatives. Still even he did nothing to reverse or retract John Paul II’s statement that natural selection was scientifically established and “is not just one more theory”. > [@kk\_fusion](#): > > What I want is a clear renunciation of the “God created humans separately in their present form” nonsense that I keep hearing from quite a few followers of this man. Ironically, do you realize that **what you are asking is _for the Vatican to issue a scientific dictate_ for the faithful to follow**? What you heard is nonsense from pigheaded followers who don’t know their own church’s official doctrines. That was AFAIK never even really “doctrine” in the sense of a Vatican proclamation of it being a mandatory belief, but just what the XIXth century hierarchy came up with as an initial reaction. Human evolution has been unequivocally accepted by the Papacy since the time of the last few Piuses. But in that sense, this is yet another case in which Francis says something that HAS been the Church position for years, often decades, or a few times centuries, just in more media-friendly language, and everyone on BOTH far left and far right go _ **OMG HE SAID SOMETHING SO RADICAL!!!1!1!!11** _ because people, including Catholics themselves have never actually looked up the current Catechism and Apostolic Constitutions, just faintly remembering what they learned from Sister Amargata in school 50 years ago, or what their Catholic neighbor Mr. Rodríguez mentioned over drinks one day, or what they saw on TV. (BTW, the Catholic Cable chanel, EWTN, is useless on this. Their editorial line makes Benedict a moderate.) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/11 "2014-10-29T13:22:49Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But in that sense, this is yet another case in which Francis says something that HAS been the Church position for years, often decades, or a few times centuries, just in more media-friendly language, and everyone on BOTH far left and far right go _ **OMG HE SAID SOMETHING SO RADICAL!!!1!1!!11** _ because people, including Catholics themselves have never actually looked up the current Catechism and Apostolic Constitutions, just faintly remembering what they learned from Sister Amargata in school 50 years ago, or what their Catholic neighbor Mr. Rodríguez mentioned over drinks one day, or what they saw on TV. (BTW, the Catholic Cable chanel, EWTN, is useless on this. Their editorial line makes Benedict a moderate.) I agree with **JRDelirious** here. Catholicism hasn’t had any issue with TBBT or evolution in quite a long time. Some of my friends posted this and I went… “Um, guys, this has been Church position for quite some time”. And yes, some of them I’m sure have more sacraments done than I have. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/12 "2014-10-29T13:32:00Z")
> [@Kiber](#): > > I’m not questioning your experience - but I’m having trouble finding anything saying Catholics should believe in the Big Bang Theory. The best I can find is statements saying that TBBT doesn’t necessarily conflict with a divine creator, etc. For example, from [here](http://lifeteen.com/the-big-bang-theory/): > > Certainly not a definitive source, but this is what the Church is using to teach teenagers on the topic. And my best interpretation isn’t the Church saying TBBT is true - just that it’s OK to believe in if you want. > > Now looking more broadly - here’s what [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution) has to say on the issue: > > Maybe this whole thing isn’t a very big change in the Church’s stance - and instead just a gradual evolution (pun intended)? But it feels like a change from - “Ok, believe if you want.”, to instead “Yep - it’s true.” No. Your “feeling” most likely comes from a lack of clear understanding about the Catholic Church’s teachings, or possibly an unfamiliarity with Georges Lemaître, the author of the 1931 paper that first proposed a Big Bang beginning to the observable universe. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/13 "2014-10-29T13:36:59Z")
Wasn’t it a [Catholic priest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre) who first proposed the Big Bang? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/14 "2014-10-29T14:05:25Z")
Hey, did you hear? Obama just said that bin Laden was a bad man; pizza is good. How controversial! But isn’t that new and exciting? Francis said this. As did Pius XII. As did John Paul II. As did yes, Benedict\*. Schönborn isn’t the same person. Francis was also speaking to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, I can’t imagine they’d react positively if he said the opposite. This is a body that does not require any specific religious commitment or even belief! Although I’d expect the Vatican Observatory to react similarly Lemaître got paid by the Catholic University of Leuven. Guess where they got some of their money from? People or groups generally don’t want to shit on their “own” CVs anyway. \*See: [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution#Pope_Benedict_XVI). I love wikipedia’s statement: “Commentators tend to interpret the Church’s position in the way most favorable to their own arguments.” ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/15 "2014-10-29T14:07:15Z")
The People and the Church has said since at least 1950 that there is no inconsistency between the Catholic Church and Evolution. The “controversy” of Evolution is a recent invention (last twenty years or so) of the American Religious Right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/16 "2014-10-29T14:19:59Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > Wasn’t it a [Catholic priest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre) who first proposed the Big Bang? Yup, that would be Georges Lemaître, the author of the 1931 paper that first proposed a Big Bang beginning to the observable universe. Cosmologist and Catholic priest. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/17 "2014-10-29T14:31:23Z")
Thanks for the catch on Schönborn,\*\* thelurkinghorror\*\*. > [@Quimby](#): > > The People and the Church has said since at least 1950 that there is no inconsistency between the Catholic Church and Evolution. The “controversy” of Evolution is a recent invention (last twenty years or so) of the American Religious Right. Actually it’s a bit older than that (see: Snopes), but yes, in the way we know it mainly an American Christian Fundamentalists-driven issue. Just that they were mostly out of political power and influence between the 1920s and 1980s so out of sight, out of mind. Already in the 60s/70s there was a resurgence of creationist literature, riding the culture war backlash. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/18 "2014-10-29T14:44:05Z")
There has been very little difference of positions between Francis and his predecessors. What there has been, however, is a difference of emphasis, and that difference of emphasis has, I think, been overwhelmingly in Francis’s favor. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/19 "2014-10-29T14:49:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There has been very little difference of positions between Francis and his predecessors. What there has been, however, is a difference of emphasis, and that difference of emphasis has, I think, been overwhelmingly in Francis’s favor. On other topics, I think you can certainly make that argument. Not on the Big Bang and acceptance thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894/20 "2014-10-29T15:12:37Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The well of Christian intelligence, and the perception thereof, has been deeply and badly polluted by the jackasses of the southern Baptist stripe. It only takes so much brainless shit before the water tastes foul to everyone. And this was my motivation for “sharing” an article about this on my personal Facebook account last night. My Catholic aunt posted it first, then I reposted it. Then I got a nastygram from a Catholic mommy-friend who wants to know WHY people think The Church is anti-science. She says that the guy who came up with the Big Bang theory was a priest (I can’t be bothered to confirm that). I’m not sure I should bother to point out that my line of thought was, “let’s show those evangelicals that conservative Christians CAN believe in science…”. Which goes to show how flawed and naive my gut understanding of Christianity is. Stupid to think that evangelicals would give a flying fuck what Catholics think, right? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pope-says-evolution-and-the-big-bang-are-real/702894.md?page=2)