Popular Fiction and Nonwhite Characters

Yeah, that’s true. I guess what made me wonder was the reaction of people who say things like, “A black character isn’t a white character with dark skin.” Apparently there’s more which I’ve never gotten.

I remember people thinking that the Jennifer Hudson character in the Sex and the City movie was tokenism because they had had very few black characters on the show. Or the black character (forget the actress) who was dating Ross on Friends. I suppose it felt that way because it was so forced because people had criticized and they reacted by throwing in a black character. If they’d just had a black character or two in from the beginning it probably wouldn’t be a big deal. And maybe if we had more nonwhite characters just in as a matter of course they wouldn’t have to be “the black one.” Or “the Hispanic one.”

It seems very easy to go too far the other way, too. Often it seems like a white hero is just written as a hero who happens to be white, just as they might happen to be tall, or have brown eyes. Whereas a black or Asian (or female, or gay, or minority x) hero is written with that trait as a major part of their motivation or backstory. Even when a character* isn’t *there to be The Black Guy, even when they’re simply meant to be the hero or the damsel in distress or whatever, that trait seems to be played up in a way that it generally isn’t when it comes to white (or heterosexual, or majority x) characters.

Yes, definitely. And sometimes it’s insanely awkward. In the Babysitters Club series from the 80s/90s (yes…don’t judge me!) there was a black girl character and most of her personality revolved around liking ballet or feeling oppressed. With the other characters making it clear that many other people in the town were racist, but they hardly ever even thought of it. It’s cringe worthy, really.

I mean, I get that racism is still a problem. It just feels like when you give each character in a film an “issue” and for the black person it’s racism or for the gay one, it’s homophobia…it feels lazy. Like a white person can have a realm of problems, but the black person will always be that person who has to make a stand for race.

I’m also thinking of the movie the Craft–the four main characters all had problems they tried to use magic to solve. And the black girl’s problem was that another girl was bullying her and being racist. (And she actually used the word “negroid” as a put down–that felt strained, to me.) Not saying that black people don’t deal with racism. It just felt–ooh, she’s black, she gets the race stuff.

Lots of Jewish actors have portrayed Nazis. On Hogan’s Heroes pretty much all of the Nazis were played by Jews (Klink/Werner Klemperer, Schulz/John Banner, Burkhalter/Leon Askin, Hofstedder/Howard Caine). Banner and Askin had both been held in concentration camps and both lost immediate family in them after they refugeed; Klemperer, whose family fled in the early days of the Third Reich, had previously portrayed Eichmann and several other Nazi characters (most notably the judge on trial with Burt Lancaster in Judgment at Nuremberg) as had Askin and Banner.

I did not know that. Did any of them object to the (to modern eyes) tastelessness of Hogan’s Heroes or was it a ‘sticking it toThe Man’ kind of thing for them?

Characters can have issues with their race when their show makes race an issue. When a show tries to be realistic, it includes race as an issue if it has characters who would normally be racists in real life. Political shows can’t get away with a black senator from Alabama without some sort of explanation. Historical period shows can’t get away with a black character not experiencing at least some sort of racism. A show like the Sopranos can’t get away with having a black crew member without it being really jarring. Could Carmella be played by a black or Asian woman? Could Dr. Melfi even be played by someone who wasn’t white?

Shows that take place in the future usually have more minorities because a writer can pretend racism doesn’t exist in that world and so race doesn’t become an issue.

He didn’t play a German on the show, but Robert Clary (LeBeau) was a French Jew and had been sent to Buchenwald during the war.

I think those two examples are especially pertinent because the shows are set in New York. Not having regular non-white characters was odd to begin with, so when they showed up after criticism, it felt a tad forced. But it is a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario…

ETA I always think of Pete in* Smallville* when this issue comes up. Aside form the general shitty writing, his ethnicity was changed from the comics, which was no big deal. Literally. He was so one-dimensional he could have been anyone. But then when they tried to give his character more storylines, they barely knew what to do with him.

German Jews fled Germany during the thirties for obvious reasons. If you were an actor you needed to find work in your new country. If you had a German accent, you’re going to be cast as German characters. And if you look at movies made in the United States or United Kingdom, most of the German characters are WWII-era Nazis. So Jews ended up being cast as Nazis. If you were a German Jewish actor, I guess you either learned to live with this or you got out of show business.

I feel like there’s tokenism when a show portrays a diversity that doesn’t reflect the actual demographics of where it’s set. I’m from San Francisco, which is a pretty demographically diverse place, but it’s diverse in a way that doesn’t reflect the nation as a whole. The single largest “racial” group is Asian (about 30% of the population), and 15% of the population identifies as gay, which is wayyyyy larger than the general population (I’m sure you’re all surprised to learn this). I have never seen any show that takes place in San Francisco that takes this into account. Instead, it’s always a bunch of white people and one black person. And they’re all straight. :confused:

There are times when a character needs to be of a certain race/ethnicity. Hitler, for example, WAS, historically, of a certain racial/ethnic background, so it is perfectly valid, if seeking realism as opposed to irony or surrealism, to have him depicted as such.

Or perhaps a writer wants to explore certain cultural aspects best served by characters OF that culture (say, Amy Tan writing Chinese characters or, to use a play I am currently anaylizing for a class, Suzan-Lori Parks might want to use Black characters to tell a story particular to that culture and experience.)

But absolutely, I love it when a writer (or director or casting director) breaks out of the box of ASSUMING a character should be of some “default” (usually “white”) race and just writes or casts a character as INCIDENTALLY of some other race/ethnic background. (or even as gay or a woman or mentally or physically challenged, incidentally, as opposed to that being the defining factor or even necessary for the larger character development).

I guess because I like to imagine that one fine day this will be the norm in reality as well as fiction. But also because as a writer, reader and viewer of films and plays, I appreciate well-rounded, complex characters, not tokens or one-dimensional ones.

But for some stories, in real life as in fiction, such aspects ARE the essential defining characteristic in that they are integral to the tale.

There are two examples I will cite, both from the work of Stephen King, one from a novel and one from the film adaptation of a novella he wrote.

In The Stand, a central character, Nick Andros, is never once declared as being of any particular race or ethnic background, but there are several details which hint that he was Black or bi-racial. (a description of his hair texture at one point, a beating by a herd of “rednecks” which strongly implied a racial bias at play, though because his character was deaf and the scene was related largely from his pov, he (and we) caught only snatches of the comments made, his backstory of having been taught to read and write by a “big Black man” and their relationship/relating to one another, and also subtle clues in the way he was addressed and reacted to the “old Black woman”, Mother Abigail.)

At any rate, I am one who firmly sees this character as Black or bi-racial, even though it is never explicitly stated by the author and is, arguably, irrelevent to the story-line. But most I know never considered that, and when the mini-series was produced, he was cast as a white man. Mother Abigail, who was explicitly desribed as Black, was the only major non-anglo character.

In The Shawshank Redemption (based on the novella of similar name, Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption) the character of Red was, imo, brilliantly given to Morgan Freeman. Brilliant not only because he did such a great job with it, but because nowhere in the novella is Red described as NOT being Black (or being White)…he is described as having red hair and having an Irish surname, hence his nickname. Could just as easily be a Black man as a White one. WTH not, I say? It made no difference whatsoever to his role as written (though as acted served to inform it considerably, imo).

I recall years ago hearing a debate somewhere over a Black man playing Jesus in some production, and not a few whites in the discussion were not pleased, most saying something along the lines of, “Well, no, it doesn’t matter if he was Black or White or PURPLE, BUT…” :rolleyes: IOW, it doesn’t MATTER, just don’t you DARE depict him as BLACK! :eek:

But, they argued it was historical revisionism, which, on its face, is questionable, since 1. WAS he an actual historical figure 2. the Bible contains passages which support the view that Jesus as written of had feet the color of bronze and was called an “Ethiopian”. :dubious:

WRT Jesus or Santa Claus (who arguably is historically a Nordic/White character in origin), all’s fair. As it is with any other character whose race/ethnic background is not integral to the story-line.

Is that really that odd? Are groups of interracial friends really that ubiquitous in New York?

Because in my experience of the rest of the US, indeed the rest of the world, they aren’t common at all. Even amongst people who are are not in any way racist, it’s odd to find interracial groups of friends after high school/college. There are probably many reasons for this, but it remains a fact. Have a look at the pictures of groups of friends on Google, and aside from the stock images produced by professionals, none of them are multi racial.

That’s not to say that such groups don’t exist at all, just that they are very much rare exceptions, not the rule. And as such adding minorities to shows that focus exclusively on a group of friends makes them far less believable and realistic. IOW S&TC or Friends would have been much odder if they had had regular minority characters, because in real life most people don’t regularly spend leisure time with people of other races.

Now for work shows it’s different. People do indeed spend their work time in multi-racial groups, and for shows like House it’s not in the least jarring to find that 25% of the population is minority. But for shows about friends, the use of minorities always feels forced because that’s not representative of what we know about reality. That’s when it feels like tokenism, when a group of upper middle class white yuppies in New York are portrayed hanging around in multi racial groups when we all know that is very rare.

Yes, he indisputably was. As historical as Alexander or Socrates at least.

The Bible contains no such passages.

Hang on?

How do you figure that Jesus’ origin as a Judean Jew is irrelevant? It’s absolutely essential to his entire story. He absolutely could not have been the Christ if he had been anything other than a practising and racial Jew, born in Bethlehem and a direct descendant of David. The authors go to great lengths to emphasise those points.

Saying that Jesus’ race/ethnic background is not integral to the story-line is even more preposterous than saying that Uncle Tom’s race/ethnic background is not integral to the story-line, and that he could be played by a white actor.

There is some dispute as to whether Jesus was, in fact, a single historical figure akin to those you mention…some scholars believe the figure known as Jesus the Christ was, in reality, a composite of 2 or more historical and mythological figures.

And there is also support for the theory that if he WAS a single historical figure, he may very well have been of African origin/race or partially so. A few relevent passages:

“His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace…” (John’s desription of a figure who identifies himself thusly: "“I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”

Now, this is widely considered, like most of this book, to be a highly symbolic narrative, but some point to the description of his having “hair like white wool” as also supporting an African lineage.

Matthew 1:1-14 The genealogy of Jesus in which four Afro-Asiatic women are included, viz. Rahab, Tamar, Ruth, and Bathsheba.

Matthew 2:13-18 Out of Egypt (Africa) have I called my son (see Hosea 11:1).

And this from Wikipedia, which, if nothing else, supports my assertion that there IS some debate based on Biblical passages over this issue:

“Belief of Jesus being black, at least in part, is based on multiple passages in the Bible describing the background of the Jews, Israelites, and Hebrews as a whole. These include passages describing the Sojourn in Egypt in the Book of Exodus, Amos 9:7, Song of Songs 1:5, and Aaron’s grandson, the High Priest Phinehas. According to the Oxford Guide to the Bible The Bible also uses Egyptian and Nubian names for the land and its people… For the Egyptians used to these color variations, the term for their southern neighbors was Nehesi, “southerner”, which eventually also came to mean “the black” or “the Nubian”. This Egyptian root (nhsj, with the preformative p’ as a definite article) appears in Exodus 6.25 as the personal name of Aaron’s grandson Phinehas (=pa-nehas)[17], the third high priest of Israel. In addition the African and Black ethnicities are composed of the widest variation historically and presently[18]. The issue is also complex and far from monolithic. Modern Ethiopian Jews have roots going back at least 2000 years and possibly as far back as the days of the Kingdom of Israel.”

You argument that his identity as a Judean Jew and a descendant of a certain lineage does not necessarily contradict the theory that he could, very well, have been also of African descent and have had an appearance reflecting that. In that sense, his being depicted as Black would not necessarily alter or ignore the essential elements of the story as you see it.

Some scholars believe the same thing about Alexander and Socrates. Indeed, some doubt Socrates even existed. However the vast majority of scholars accept that all three were historical figures. So I say once again: Jesus is as much a historical figure as Alexander or Socrates.

Are you joking? Have you ever actually read that verse, rather than the bit that you want to use?

Firstly it isn’t referring to a person at all, it is explcitely of a vision.

Secondly how does statement that a vision’s feet glow bright orange like heated copper indicate it is a statue of a Negro?

Thirdly the same passage says that the vision has a sword for a tongue and holding stars in his hand.

If you believe, as you claim, that this is a description of Jesus a he was when alive then what race was he that his feet glowed in the dark and his tongue was made of metal and 7 feet long and he could hold stars in his hand? What race has those characteristics?

I’ll say again: the Bible contains no such passage. I’m fine with you wanting to interpret a verse literally, but when you start trying to interpret a description of a statues feet glowing cherry red literally, but saying that the rest of the sentence about the sword tongue is figurative, my bullshit meters goes off.

No mention is made of who those women were., so you can have no idea of there ancestry. Literally all that you know of them is the name.

Wherever did you get this “Afro-Asiatic” (whatever that means) nonsense from?

Right, and? This is explained right there in that chapter as referring to Jesus flight to Egypt in infancy.

Are you just making this nonsense up on the spot, or have you actually thought about it and read those verses?

:rolleyes:

Yep, and the parts in Wikipedia about debate on whether black people are inferior and imperfect proves that Jesus couldn’t have been black because he is described as being superior and perfect.

So are we allowed to use Wikipedia references to ideas and debate as evidence or not? Because if we can i can prove instantly that Jesus couldn’t have been Black. And if we can’t then *what *were you thinking?

Firstly, that isn’t what you said. You said that his background and ethnicity was irrelevant, which is nonsense. They are central to his character.

Secondly we could say the same thing about Uncle Tom or almost any other character. They could be of any appearance and have no impact on the story.

And the same is true of Uncle Tom, Tom Joad or Tom Bombadil. So what? If your contention is simply that racial appearance is very, very rarely relevant to character then you are correct. But that isn’t what you said.

I think that with S&TC people upset by “tokenism” were really reaching. S&TC is a show with more minorities than most shows ever have in their cast. They had numerous gay characters (the two biggest were obviously Stanford and Anthony) and numerous jewish characters (Harry was the biggest of them but they included many rabbis, synagoge members, etc.) as well as several racial minorities (Dr. Robert Leeds, Maria, and several other characters with smaller parts that are around for only an episode or two). To say that Jennifer Hudson was a token character says more about the people getting in a huff than it does about the show.

Hey, Blake, MY bullshit meter goes off when someone is so rabid about defending the historical existence and race of a figure for which there IS legitimate debate surrounding those characteristics. :dubious:

You yourself admit that some doubt the actual historical existence of Socrates or Alexander, just as some do Jesus. Right. What I SAID…SOME scholars hold this view. I never said or implied ALL or even many or most.

Yeah, I HAVE read the verses I was citing…have read the entire Bible in fact, having been raised a Christian.

Why I pointed out that the Revelation verse was usually considered to be highly symbolic, not a literal description, but it IS considered by some to be one that supports the debatable theory that Jesus as written of was Black…I don’t, frt, consider it a very GOOD one for that purpose, but I was simply offering it, first, as an example of what some claim as evidence and secondly, in response to your challenge that it didn’t exist.

Same reason I submitted the other passages…not arguing that I interpret them a particular way, just supporting my claim that SOME do and that such suggestive passages DO exist.

And perhaps my use of the term “race/ethnic background” was confusing…I tend to use that term as opposed to just “race” since race is a slippery, often undefinable characteristic, and often when we speak of “race”, what we really mean is “ethnic background”, i.e. the country of origin of their ancestors and/or the cultural climate from which they sprang.

I did NOT intend to suggest that the RELIGION or LINEAGE of the figure Jesus as depicted in the Bible stories was irrelevent, just that it is conceivable his RACE/ETHNIC BACKGROUND was African or partially so.

I don’t KNOW is that is the case, no-one does. So why NOT depict Jesus as Black, all else being equal?

You apparently took offense at my comparison between Jesus and Santa Claus, and I admit, as far as I am concerned, both are largly mythological characters IN THAT while both may have historical figures behind them (St. Nicolaus, Jesus of Naz.) both have been built up into magical beings with supernatural powers.

But the CORE of both stories, the essential message (for those of us who accept neither AS actual magical beings) is unaffected by their race/ethinic origin. I would be no more offended by a Black Santa than I would a Black Jesus.

Wasn’t Judas Iscariot black in Jesus Christ, Superstar ?

What you said was that he was less historical than any other historical figure of that period. That isn’t true. To the extent that we can say any non-ruler (and most rulers) in antiquity was an historical, we can say it of Jesus.

How. Can you please explain how the hell having feet that literally glow bright orange is in any way indicative of being Negro? Do the feet of Negroes commonly glow bright orange in your experience?

Until you can explain how “glowing orange feet” = “negro” it doesn’t exist. That isn’t evidence, it’s a total non sequitur. In what way doe shaving glowing feet make somebody a Negro?

Ahh, so you’re one of those. You make nonsense statements that the Bible contains passages that support X. Then when you are called on it you say claim that *you *don’t understand how they support it, just that others believe they do.

I calls bullshit. If you think the Bible contains such passages then show them to us and explain how they support such a conclusion. If you cna;t do that then no such passages exist.

HTF does that clarify your false statement?

The country of origin of Jesus’ ancestors was *more *important than his race, not less, and being a racial Jew was pretty damn important.

That isn’t what you said. You said he was black, that there were Biblical passages supporting that he was black, and that his race and ethnicity were irrelevant.

Now that you’ve been called on it you are weaseling away without actually retracting the statements.

The facts:

  1. There are no passages that indicate that Jesus was a Negro. Having glowing orange feet is not a characteristic of Negros, or indeed any human being.

  2. Jesus’ race (Jewish) and his ethic background (Judaen, observant Jew born of a Jewish mother) were paramount in his character.

It is conceivable that his racial background may have been Inuit and Martian, a hundred generations back. But since there is no evidence to support such a claim it is a classic argument form ignorance.

Why not depict Shaka or the earliest H. sapiens as being white, all things being equal? It’s highly improbable that such individuals were white, but using your argument from ignorance you would have no complaint if they were depicted as being white.

You apparently took offense at my comparison between Jesus and Santa Claus, and I admit, as far as I am concerned, both are largly mythological characters IN THAT while both may have historical figures behind them (St. Nicolaus, Jesus of Naz.) both have been built up into magical beings with supernatural powers.

Well in that case why not a white Shaka, or a White Martin Luther King, or a white Nigger Jim? Them being white doesn’t alter the CORE of both stories, the essential message.

As I said earlier, race is central to the identity of almost no characters. Adolph Hitler one of the very few characters I can think of who really couldn’t be of any other race. I really can’t see how portraying King or Shaka as being white skinned would change in any way the CORE of their stories, the essential message.

But as a wise man once said, you often can make a sows ear out of a silk purse, but you probably shouldn’t try.

Well the easiest answer to this is that sometimes it matters what ethnicity a character is, sometimes it doesn’t. For instance in the novel The Shawshank Redemption, Red is an Irish character. In the film he’s played by a black actor. Doesn’t seem to matter too terribly much for that particular story. However there is a nearly endless list of characters whose ethnic background somehow affected an important part of their characterization or the story. Did it matter that Willow’s character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer was Jewish? Not at all, she could have worked fine as a character if she was black or East Asian or whatever. But having an ethnic background made her seem like a more fleshed out character. No one minds much that some non Italians played Italians in The Godfather, but the film would not have been as good if the characters they were playing were not specifically identified as Italians.