# Popularity to obscurity in music: when did the shift take place? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 26, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448 "2010-04-26T20:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/1 "2010-04-26T20:18:48Z")
There was once a time when a person, let’s say between the ages of 15 and 30, was considered “cool” if they liked the most popular bands. The quality of a band was considered to be directly proportional to its popularity. Today, it’s considered “cool” to be into the most obscure bands and scenes. The quality of a band is now considered to be inversely proportional to its popularity. When, roughly, did this shift take place? Why? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/2 "2010-04-26T20:49:57Z")
Around the time you turned 25. It’s not a “then” vs. “now” phenomenon. Do you really think middle school kids are into obscure bands no one’s ever heard of? No. They’re into the mainstreamest of the mainstream, because that’s who everyone else is into, and they’re trying to fit in. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/3 "2010-04-27T00:41:29Z")
More like they’re too naive to know better, and that’s all the local radio stations play. At least that was the case before DL musical content came along, which likely altered this equation significantly; I’ll defer to those with first-hand experience (either was young persons themselves or their parents). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/4 "2010-04-27T01:54:27Z")
There was always a divide between “popular” music and “cool” music. Look at 1966. That was the year the Beatles released _Revolver_ and _Rubber Soul_ and John Lennon was bigger than Jesus. The Rolling Stones released _Aftermath_ - their first all self-composed album. The Who released _My Generation_ and _A Quick One_. Simon and Garfunkel released _Sounds of Silence_ and _Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme_. The Beach Boys released _Pet Sounds_. The Kinks released _Face to Face_. Janis Joplin hooked up with Big Brother and the Holding Company. Jefferson Airplane and the Mothers of Invention released their first albums. Buffalo Springfield, Cream, the Grateful Dead, the Jimi Hendrix Experience, and Pink Floyd were all starting out. And here are Billboard’s top five best-selling singles for 1966: #1 I’m a Believer - The Monkees #2 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - SSgt Barry Sadler #3 Winchester Cathedral - New Vaudville Band #4 (You’re My) Soul And Inspiation - Righteous Brothers #5 Monday Monday - The Mamas & The Papas ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/5 "2010-04-27T02:10:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There was always a divide between “popular” music and “cool” music. > > Look at 1966. That was the year the Beatles released _Revolver_ and _Rubber Soul_ and John Lennon was bigger than Jesus. The Rolling Stones released _Aftermath_ - their first all self-composed album. The Who released _My Generation_ and _A Quick One_. Simon and Garfunkel released _Sounds of Silence_ and _Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme_. The Beach Boys released _Pet Sounds_. The Kinks released _Face to Face_. Janis Joplin hooked up with Big Brother and the Holding Company. Jefferson Airplane and the Mothers of Invention released their first albums. Buffalo Springfield, Cream, the Grateful Dead, the Jimi Hendrix Experience, and Pink Floyd were all starting out. > > And here are Billboard’s top five best-selling singles for 1966: > > #1 I’m a Believer - The Monkees > #2 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - SSgt Barry Sadler > #3 Winchester Cathedral - New Vaudville Band > #4 (You’re My) Soul And Inspiation - Righteous Brothers > #5 Monday Monday - The Mamas & The Papas Take it for what its worth, I was born in 82 and the only songs in your post that I heard of are The Ballad Of The Green Beret and I’m a Believe. And The Ballad Of The Green Berets is on my Ipod. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/6 "2010-04-27T03:06:31Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Take it for what its worth, I was born in 82 and the only songs in your post that I heard of are The Ballad Of The Green Beret and I’m a Believe. And The Ballad Of The Green Berets is on my Ipod. I think that’s his point…that a lot of great, enduring music was being made in 1966, but that wasn’t what topped the charts. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/7 "2010-04-27T03:17:54Z")
I don’t think it’s a shift in time as much as it is a shift in hanging out with hipsters. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/8 "2010-04-27T04:45:45Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > The Ballad Of The Green Berets is on my Ipod. You do know you didn’t just realize that and say it to yourself, right? You actually typed it. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/9 "2010-04-27T08:57:01Z")
Popular music was never cool, and cool music was never popular. The popular kids who listened to the popular music didn’t like the weirdos who liked what we now know was cool music. At some point, probably when all those computer geeks got rich, weird became sort of popular. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/10 "2010-04-27T09:25:11Z")
Actually, the \*really \*cool kids listened to what they liked, and didn’t care whether or not it was popular. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/11 "2010-04-27T12:49:29Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Take it for what its worth, I was born in 82 and the only songs in your post that I heard of are The Ballad Of The Green Beret and I’m a Believe. And The Ballad Of The Green Berets is on my Ipod. You’ve never heard of “Monday Monday”? ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/12 "2010-04-27T13:49:52Z")
1985 and even never heard of “Monday, Monday”. But I’ve heard of “You’re my Soul and Inspiration”, though I’ve never “heard” the actual Ballad of the Green Berets, but I am aware such a song exists. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/13 "2010-04-27T13:54:06Z")
Thanks loads. Now I have “Winchester Cathedral” as an earworm. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/14 "2010-04-27T13:59:52Z")
Bah - I’m stuck with Monday Monday. Ba da, ba da da dah Ba da, ba da da dah… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/15 "2010-04-27T14:10:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Actually, the \*really \*cool kids listened to what they liked, and didn’t care whether or not it was popular. Pretty much. Actually, from my observations, the current shift, at least at the music message boards I visit which are populated with a lot of kids 10-15 years younger than me (I’m in my early 30s), seems to be to unironically appreciate both popular and more obscure music. The discussions are just as likely to center around Lady Gaga or Kanye West as they are LCD Soundsystem or Xiu Xiu, etc. To tell you the truth, I’ve noticed this since the early 2000s. I somewhat agree with **KneadToKnow** ’s assessment that this is partly generational. However, my interactions with younger listeners suggests that it may be more widespread than that, and I’m sure one can come up with a thesis linking the explosion of availability of pop culture via the internet as being part of the reason for this. It’s so much easier and takes so much less effort to find non Top-40 bands, and we do live in a time that freely mish-mashes “high” and “low” art, so much so that the distinctions are not as rigid as they once were. That’s just an off-the-top-of-my-head thesis, so it will take some fleshing out to be more coherent, but I think the cool culture of today is _not_ about obscurity, it’s about embracing both obscurity and popularity. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/16 "2010-04-27T14:21:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Actually, the \*really \*cool kids listened to what they liked, and didn’t care whether or not it was popular. Yes. I listened to top 40 for one summer when I was in fifth grade. Stopped when I went back to school. If I listened to music at all, it was Broadway showtunes. I got a real record player when I was 16. First album I bought was **Sgt. Pepper**. The second was the Bonzo Dog Band’s **Urban Spaceman**. I rarely listened to hit singles and often would pick up albums that had no commercial potential (Frank Zappa, Soft Machine, etc.). Basically, I looked for what seemed interesting to me (even if I had never heard a song on the album) and bought it. ---
**Author:** ![It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/it_s_not_rocket_surgery/32/312_2.png) [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/17 "2010-04-27T15:02:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There was always a divide between “popular” music and “cool” music. > > Look at 1966. That was the year the Beatles released _Revolver_ and _Rubber Soul_ and John Lennon was bigger than Jesus. The Rolling Stones released _Aftermath_ - their first all self-composed album. The Who released _My Generation_ and _A Quick One_. Simon and Garfunkel released _Sounds of Silence_ and _Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme_. The Beach Boys released _Pet Sounds_. The Kinks released _Face to Face_. Janis Joplin hooked up with Big Brother and the Holding Company. Jefferson Airplane and the Mothers of Invention released their first albums. Buffalo Springfield, Cream, the Grateful Dead, the Jimi Hendrix Experience, and Pink Floyd were all starting out. > > And here are Billboard’s top five best-selling singles for 1966: > > #1 I’m a Believer - The Monkees > #2 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - SSgt Barry Sadler > #3 Winchester Cathedral - New Vaudville Band > #4 (You’re My) Soul And Inspiation - Righteous Brothers > #5 Monday Monday - The Mamas & The Papas One huge difference is that rock radio was playing most of the music in your first paragraph in 1966. If I turn on my local radio right now, I might hear 5% of the music that typically turns up on any SDMB “What are you listening to now?” thread, probably less. I personally think the divide really started in the mid-late 1970’s, when both punk and disco took off. Commercial radio only played commercial pop and disco, so both punk fans and underground dance fans (which would eventually become rap) had to find out elsewhere about new music - and both found themselves being considered “cool” for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/18 "2010-04-27T16:40:41Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I think that’s his point…that a lot of great, enduring music was being made in 1966, but that wasn’t what topped the charts. Yes, and I said that my experience is the opposite. I have only heard of the ones on the chart. I do not know the ones he listed as great and enduring. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/19 "2010-04-27T16:42:44Z")
> [@digs](#): > > You do know you didn’t just realize that and say it to yourself, right? > You actually typed it. I do not get your point. I said it is one of the two songs in his post that I know, and that this one is on my Ipod. I think you guys may have misread my post and. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/20 "2010-04-27T16:50:33Z")
And? There’s also such a thing as _too_ obscure. Music from before the 60s might as well be from another world. It has no cool cachet, because to be cool something must also be relevant. Its scene is limited to archivists, obsessives, and the aged. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448.md?page=2)