# Popularity to obscurity in music: when did the shift take place? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 26, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448 "2010-04-26T20:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/21 "2010-04-27T16:52:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s just an off-the-top-of-my-head thesis, so it will take some fleshing out to be more coherent, but I think the cool culture of today is _not_ about obscurity, it’s about embracing both obscurity and popularity. My observations confirm yours. And it’s a little aggravating to me, I confess, because I simply can’t understand how someone could consider the top-40 stuff alongside (some) more “obscure” stuff and not immediately judge (some) more “obscure” stuff as being of an utterly distinct and better class of work. I can’t take the presently cool attitude of appreciating the top-40 stuff because _there’s nothing there to appreciate_. It’s terrible music, simple as that. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/22 "2010-04-27T17:00:20Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > I have only heard of the ones on the chart. I do not know the ones he listed as great and enduring. Your wording was a little vague, yes. You’re saying you’ve never heard songs including Yellow Submarine, In My Life, My Generation, The Sounds of Silence, or Purple Haze, just for starters? Can I ask where you grew up? ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/23 "2010-04-27T17:01:34Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Yes, and I said that my experience is the opposite. I have only heard of the ones on the chart. I do not know the ones he listed as great and enduring. That’s because the great and enduring things he mentioned are albums, not song titles. I’d be surprised if you’ve never heard a single song off of Revolver (e.g. Eleanor Rigby or Yellow Submarine): Side one No. Title Lead vocals Length 1. “Taxman” (George Harrison) Harrison 2:39 2. “Eleanor Rigby” McCartney 2:08 3. “I’m Only Sleeping” Lennon 3:02 4. “Love You To” (Harrison) Harrison 3:01 5. “Here, There and Everywhere” McCartney 2:26 6. “Yellow Submarine” Starr 2:40 7. “She Said She Said” Lennon 2:37 Side two No. Title Lead vocals Length 1. “Good Day Sunshine” McCartney 2:10 2. “And Your Bird Can Sing” Lennon 2:02 3. “For No One” McCartney 2:01 4. “Doctor Robert” Lennon 2:15 5. “I Want to Tell You” (Harrison) Harrison 2:30 6. “Got to Get You into My Life” McCartney 2:31 7. “Tomorrow Never Knows” Lennon 2:57 EDIT: ninja’ed ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/24 "2010-04-27T17:21:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s just an off-the-top-of-my-head thesis, so it will take some fleshing out to be more coherent, but I think the cool culture of today is _not_ about obscurity, it’s about embracing both obscurity and popularity. I agree. And thank goodness, by the way. I always found the popular music/obscure music divide to be maddening simply because it’s impossible to maintain the distinction without someone maintaining that the former is inferior to the latter, which it isn’t. I frequent a number of hipster-y music sites, and I always roll my eyes when albums that practically nobody has ever heard of and are frequently of middling quality are lauded over albums that are genuinely fantastic but have the nerve to be enormously popular and thus lesser. But, like you say, I think that’s changing. Among people who I regularly talk about about music with (with an age range of roughly 20-27), the distinction between popular and “indie” music is practically nonexistent. I find it refreshing, because that distinction is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/25 "2010-04-27T17:48:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Your wording was a little vague, yes. You’re saying you’ve never heard songs including Yellow Submarine, In My Life, My Generation, The Sounds of Silence, or Purple Haze, just for starters? Can I ask where you grew up? I have heard Yellow Submarine, yes, but I would not say that I know the song. I may have heard the rest, but I do not know them. I was born, live and will most likely die in north-east Pennsylvania. PS. How is “the only songs in your post that I heard of are The Ballad Of The Green Beret and I’m a Believer” vague? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/26 "2010-04-27T17:51:00Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > That’s because the great and enduring things he mentioned are albums, not song titles. I’d be surprised if you’ve never heard a single song off of Revolver (e.g. Eleanor Rigby or Yellow Submarine): > > Side one > No. Title Lead vocals Length > > 1. “Taxman” (George Harrison) Harrison 2:39 > 2. “Eleanor Rigby” McCartney 2:08 > 3. “I’m Only Sleeping” Lennon 3:02 > 4. “Love You To” (Harrison) Harrison 3:01 > 5. “Here, There and Everywhere” McCartney 2:26 > 6. “Yellow Submarine” Starr 2:40 > 7. “She Said She Said” Lennon 2:37 > > Side two > No. Title Lead vocals Length > > 1. “Good Day Sunshine” McCartney 2:10 > 2. “And Your Bird Can Sing” Lennon 2:02 > 3. “For No One” McCartney 2:01 > 4. “Doctor Robert” Lennon 2:15 > 5. “I Want to Tell You” (Harrison) Harrison 2:30 > 6. “Got to Get You into My Life” McCartney 2:31 > 7. “Tomorrow Never Knows” Lennon 2:57 > > EDIT: ninja’ed The only title I can say I have heard is Yellow Submarine. But I do not know the song. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/27 "2010-04-27T18:07:06Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Popular music was never cool, and cool music was never popular. The popular kids who listened to the popular music didn’t like the weirdos who liked what we now know was cool music. At some point, probably when all those computer geeks got rich, weird became sort of popular. Yeah, those Beatles sure were an obscure lot! ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/28 "2010-04-27T18:08:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Actually, the \*really \*cool kids listened to what they liked, and didn’t care whether or not it was popular. A-fucking-men! ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/29 "2010-04-27T18:18:42Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > And? > > There’s also such a thing as _too_ obscure. Music from before the 60s might as well be from another world. It has no cool cachet, because to be cool something must also be relevant. Its scene is limited to archivists, obsessives, and the aged. Wait. You’re trying to tell me that [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sS9zuIi470) has no cool cachet? And [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-OaNevkfg)? And even [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sinjOkz-nlw)? Wow. You must have a really strict cool vs. uncool code. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/30 "2010-04-27T18:43:49Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > I always found the popular music/obscure music divide to be maddening simply because it’s impossible to maintain the distinction without someone maintaining that the former is inferior to the latter, which it isn’t. I frequent a number of hipster-y music sites, and I always roll my eyes when albums that practically nobody has ever heard of and are frequently of middling quality are lauded over albums that are genuinely fantastic but have the nerve to be enormously popular and thus lesser. > > But, like you say, I think that’s changing. Among people who I regularly talk about about music with (with an age range of roughly 20-27), the distinction between popular and “indie” music is practically nonexistent. I find it refreshing, because that distinction is stupid. Especially when such a distinction seemed to result in annoying and pointless “hipper than thou” contests. In any case, there’s one factor responsible for this that’s been kind of danced around in this thread but not really directly addressed: audience fragmention. Since at least the 1920s with the rise of jazz, the public’s musical tastes have been divided and sub-divided many times. Initially, age was the biggest dividing line between the type of music you listened to. However, since the late 60s, so many lines have developed that audiences became more-and-more balkanized. The introduction of MP3s and the internet, in turn, increased this sub-division to the point where the borders have become numerous and weak. Basically, nearly every type of recorded music from the last century is now easily accessible to anyone with fast modem. As a result, music tastes are more individual and eclectic. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/31 "2010-04-27T19:16:00Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > PS. How is “the only songs in your post that I heard of are The Ballad Of The Green Beret and I’m a Believer” vague? In that the only actual _songs_ he listed in his post were the last five (the biggest hits of 1966). The other references were to bands and albums, not specific songs. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/32 "2010-04-27T20:13:39Z")
So you have not heard of any songs by Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Who or Hendrix? ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/33 "2010-04-27T20:52:14Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Wait. You’re trying to tell me that [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sS9zuIi470) has no cool cachet? And [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-OaNevkfg)? And even [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sinjOkz-nlw)? > > Wow. You must have a really strict cool vs. uncool code. Eh, I’m an Elvis fan (“(Marie’s the Name) His Latest Flame” is probably my most-listened-to track by any artist over the past few months), but I think I get what **Beware of Doug** is saying. Just as an example, when I was in high school it was common and “cool” for kids to listen to, say, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, and The Who. Not so much Elvis. Music from the fifties and earlier is old in a way that music from the sixties isn’t yet. I don’t think that says anything about the quality of the music one way or the other, and I don’t think that’s the last word in “cool,” but I do get the sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/34 "2010-04-27T21:06:25Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > And [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-OaNevkfg)? Things don’t get much cooler than this backing band. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/35 "2010-04-27T21:46:05Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > I do not get your point. I said it is one of the two songs in his post that I know, and that this one is on my Ipod. > > I think you guys may have misread my post and. He’s trying to tell you he thinks you’re uncool because you like a song he doesn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/36 "2010-04-27T21:46:41Z")
**The Man in Black** , you realize you are just one data point, right? FWIW, I was also born well after 1966 (in 1978) and I’m familiar with most, although not all, of the albums. I’m sure I’ve heard songs off of all of them. Moreover, I’m kind of of the opinion that if you haven’t, you live in a cultural vacuum. oooooh, my data point invalidates yours. Whatever shall we do. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/37 "2010-04-27T21:47:32Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > Eh, I’m an Elvis fan (“(Marie’s the Name) His Latest Flame” is probably my most-listened-to track by any artist over the past few months), but I think I get what **Beware of Doug** is saying. > > Just as an example, when I was in high school it was common and “cool” for kids to listen to, say, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, and The Who. Not so much Elvis. Music from the fifties and earlier is old in a way that music from the sixties isn’t yet. > > I don’t think that says anything about the quality of the music one way or the other, and I don’t think that’s the last word in “cool,” but I do get the sentiment. I think it was because back then, 50s music likely was your parents’ music and no teen would be caught dead listening to–let alone (gasp)\* liking\*–your parents’ music. Also, radio programming had a lot to do with that demarcation. Album-oriented or Classic rock stations generally never played anything before the British Invasion (i.e., 1964). ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/38 "2010-04-27T22:14:47Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > Eh, I’m an Elvis fan (“(Marie’s the Name) His Latest Flame” is probably my most-listened-to track by any artist over the past few months), but I think I get what **Beware of Doug** is saying. > > Just as an example, when I was in high school it was common and “cool” for kids to listen to, say, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, and The Who. Not so much Elvis. Music from the fifties and earlier is old in a way that music from the sixties isn’t yet. > > I don’t think that says anything about the quality of the music one way or the other, and I don’t think that’s the last word in “cool,” but I do get the sentiment. Maybe I should have said “before the 50s.” But a lot of 50s music is gone and ain’t coming back (think chart-topping fluff like Eddie Fisher), or only comes back for a subset of urban hipsters (think bachelor pad stylists like [Esquivel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Garc%C3%ADa_Esquivel)). Even the early/late 60s is now a kind of divide, with 1966 a kind of Great Flood year when megaconcerts start to flower and psychedelic really starts to challenge mainstream pop. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/39 "2010-04-27T22:35:59Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > **The Man in Black** , you realize you are just one data point, right? > > FWIW, I was also born well after 1966 (in 1978) and I’m familiar with most, although not all, of the albums. I’m sure I’ve heard songs off of all of them. Moreover, I’m kind of of the opinion that if you haven’t, you live in a cultural vacuum. > > oooooh, my data point invalidates yours. Whatever shall we do. And I was giving a data point as a person who is not a fan of the Beatles, or any of the others listed. I did not know that only fans of the bands listed where wanted for replies. I am sure I have heard many of the songs on those albums. But I do not know them. I am sorry that this is a problem. If you poll only fans of those bands, you will get get an answer that those bands are the biggest. If you take a bigger sample, you may find otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448/40 "2010-04-27T23:44:13Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > And I was giving a data point as a person who is not a fan of the Beatles, or any of the others listed. I did not know that only fans of the bands listed where wanted for replies. I am sure I have heard many of the songs on those albums. But I do not know them. I am sorry that this is a problem. > > If you poll only fans of those bands, you will get get an answer that those bands are the biggest. If you take a bigger sample, you may find otherwise. I can’t imagine that a bigger sample would ever indicate that the Beatles were anything other than one of the – probably THE – biggest pop groups of all time. And I say this as someone who has never liked the Beatles. I don’t believe I’ve ever voluntarily listened to a Beatles song…but I know plenty of them anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popularity-to-obscurity-in-music-when-did-the-shift-take-place/537448.md?page=3)