# Porter Goss: Cheney Cat's Paw **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258 "2004-08-10T21:06:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/21 "2004-08-12T00:39:06Z")
Speaking of Michael Moore and Porter Goss… [Filmmaker Moore Quotes Goss on Lack of CIA Credentials](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=5944517) > [@](#): > > “I couldn’t get a job with CIA today. I am not qualified,” the Florida Republican told documentary-maker Michael Moore’s production company during the filming of the anti-Bush movie “Fahrenheit 9/11.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/22 "2004-08-12T01:07:25Z")
By \*\* Apos\*\*: _“Must every person in the U.S. government be a loyal toady for the administration, or could we maybe have some decent, honest civil servants who are concerned with doing their jobs well instead of garnering good PR for the Bushes?”_ “To the victors belong the spoils”: Thomas Jefferson ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/23 "2004-08-12T01:19:44Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Oh. Well, I’m hesitant to actually post a link here, since the mods have closed threads for less… but the article says it’s “distributed via websites such as” one example, and if you go to that site, it’s easy to search for “fahrenheit”. (You’ll need a BitTorrent client installed to download it.) Doh! :smack: I have misread what you had written. there’s no way I would have intentionally asked anyone to do something that is against the ways of the Dope. > [@Mr2001](#): > > What he said was: “I don’t have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it with people as long as they’re not trying to make a profit off my labour.” Thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/24 "2004-08-12T01:44:42Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Was there sale on emoticons over at Wallyworld? Too bad the OP didn’t pick up some substance while they were at it… The wild Brutus is a easily frightened animal, so we must be very careful as we approach its home. Notice how he makes a mat out of the dry grasses to form a sleeping bed. He will use the pile of stic- Oh, oh, he’s spotted us! A wild Brutus will usually spook at any sign of an opponent, and begin shouting loudly about the faces it makes while running away from the point. Oooh, there he goes! Majestic creature, but rarely caught on film! Today has been a treat! O\_o ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/25 "2004-08-12T15:24:21Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Speaking of Michael Moore and Porter Goss… > > [Filmmaker Moore Quotes Goss on Lack of CIA Credentials](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=5944517) Continuing… > [@](#): > > President Bush has said that Rep. Porter Goss is “the right man” to lead the CIA - but as of five months ago, the nominee didn’t think he was even qualified to work there. > > The Florida Republican told filmmaker Michael Moore in March, “It is true I was a case officer, clandestine services officer, and yes, I do understand the core mission of the business. But I couldn’t get a job with the CIA today. I am not qualified.” > > Goss, who went on to become a multimillionaire and then a congressman after leaving his job as an agent, explained: "I don’t have the language skills. I, you know, my language skills were Romance languages and stuff. We’re looking for Arabists today. I don’t have the cultural background, probably. > > "And I certainly don’t have the technical skills, uh, as my children remind me every day, ‘Dad you got to get better on your computer.’ > > “Uh, so, the things that you need to have, I don’t have.” > > Moore interviewed Goss, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, for his documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11.” This part was edited out, but Moore still has all the footage. > > Goss faces tough criticism in the confirmation process from colleagues like Rep. Nancy Pelosi and Sen. Jay Rockefeller, who agree that he is not qualified. Ironic in that, in honestly admitting that he’s underqualified for the position, he automatically makes himself more qualified than one could’ve reasonably hoped. Now if the man had any genuine integrity, he would refuse the nomination instead of trying to “spin” the above quote during the approval process. I’d like to be surprised, but I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/26 "2004-08-12T20:58:45Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > By \*\* Apos\*\*: _“Must every person in the U.S. government be a loyal toady for the administration, or could we maybe have some decent, honest civil servants who are concerned with doing their jobs well instead of garnering good PR for the Bushes?”_ > > “To the victors belong the spoils”: Thomas Jefferson Maybe if we were talking the post office, ok. This is the CIA. The LAST thing it needs is a political toady. ---
**Author:** ![MaleBox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MaleBox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaleBox)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/27 "2004-08-12T21:34:58Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > By \*\* Apos\*\*: _“Must every person in the U.S. government be a loyal toady for the administration, or could we maybe have some decent, honest civil servants who are concerned with doing their jobs well instead of garnering good PR for the Bushes?”_ > > “To the victors belong the spoils”: Thomas Jefferson Jefferson never said that. In fact, his Attorney General was a Whig. Bush apparently can’t even handle [the Chief of the Park Police not adhering to the party line](http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/10/park.police.chief/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/28 "2004-08-13T00:18:52Z")
> [@MaleBox](#): > > Jefferson never said that. In fact, his Attorney General was a Whig. > > Bush apparently can’t even handle [the Chief of the Park Police not adhering to the party line](http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/10/park.police.chief/index.html). The Whig party didn’t exist during Jefferson’s presidency. It was created much later for the specific purpose of opposing Andrew Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/29 "2004-08-13T01:10:02Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Maybe if we were talking the post office, ok. This is the CIA. The LAST thing it needs is a political toady. You may not agree with the spoils system that has been around since the days of the founding fathers, and I may not agree with it, but never the less, we’re stuck with it. It’s folly to hope that partisan lines will be crossed when an appointment to an important post is being filled. Now, it happens on rare occasion, as I’m sure someone will cite here soon enough. But it’s rare. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/30 "2004-08-13T01:51:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **John Carter** :It’s folly to hope that partisan lines will be crossed when an appointment to an important post is being filled. Rumor has it that John McCain was questioned about his willingness to run with Kerry on the Vice Presidential ticket. But I guess you meant a really _important_ position. Let’s see what Candidate Bush promised: > [@](#): > > I also want to go to Washington to get some positive things done. It is going to require a new spirit. A spirit of cooperation. It will require the ability of a Republican president to reach out across the partisan divide and to say to Democrats, let’s come together to do what is right for America. I guess he intended for the Democrats to get on board and support his Republican nominations. Damn! Fool me once… ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/31 "2004-08-13T02:21:47Z")
…shame on, shame on you. Fool me… you can’t get fooled again! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/32 "2004-08-13T08:28:35Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Rumor has it that John McCain was questioned about his willingness to run with Kerry on the Vice Presidential ticket. But I guess you meant a really _important_ position. But he’s not on the ticket, is he? > [@Zoe](#): > > Let’s see what Candidate Bush promised: > “I also want to go to Washington to get some positive things done. It is going to require a new spirit. A spirit of cooperation. It will require the ability of a Republican president to reach out across the partisan divide and to say to Democrats, let’s come together to do what is right for America.” Rumors and rhetoric! No actual appointments. Friend **Zoe** , you left this part of my post out: “Now, it happens on rare occasion, as I’m sure someone will cite here soon enough. But it’s rare.” Certainly, it is to be hoped that somebody will post a real cite in due course. But sadly, the spoils system prevails 99% of the time. Can anybody think of a cross-party appointment to an important position? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/33 "2004-08-13T09:52:29Z")
You can view a small video of Goss talking about not being qualified on the front page of [http://www.michaelmoore.com/](http://www.michaelmoore.com/). Also the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3560484.stm) says > [@](#): > > The White House has dismissed the interview as “ridiculous hearsay”. How can it be hearsay if he’s talking about himself? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/34 "2004-08-13T12:13:10Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > You can view a small video of Goss talking about not being qualified on the front page of [http://www.michaelmoore.com/](http://www.michaelmoore.com/). > > Also the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3560484.stm) says How can it be hearsay if he’s talking about himself? ‘Quibble’ is thine name. He is obviously talking about a field agent job with the CIA, which I doubt any Director after Dulles was qualified to perform. But in true Moore-onic fashion, the interview is clipped, so we don’t get the context. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/35 "2004-08-13T13:12:31Z")
“But in true Moore-onic fashion, the interview is clipped, so we don’t get the context. Why is that?” It’s like Moore’s other stuff: If the whole interview were posted, a true impression would result instead of a false one. To be a successful Moore-on, one must look only at part of any picture and then through slanted and dusty rays of light. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/36 "2004-08-13T13:31:23Z")
In and of himself, I don’t have a problem with Porter Goss. He’s not a particularly inspired choice, but he’s not a terrible choice, either. But in this case, with an election right around the corner, ANY nominee was going to be put in an awkward situation. There’s a 50-50 chance we’ll have a new President next January, and a top-notch candidate would be understandably leery of having to work for a new administration that didn’t trust him, just a few months down the line. So… in this case, some real consultation was called for. Bush SHOULD have given John Kerry a call, and told him, “Look, whichever of us wins, we’re going to need someone GOOD heading the CIA. Why don’t you make up a list of capable people, I’ll make up a list of capable people, and let’s see if there’s somebody we can’t both agree is right for the job?” As it is, Rep. Goss has no chance of a decent working relationship with a possible President Kerry. And that’s not Goss’ fault. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/37 "2004-08-13T15:05:23Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > ‘Quibble’ is thine name. He is obviously talking about a field agent job with the CIA, which I doubt any Director after Dulles was qualified to perform. But in true Moore-onic fashion, the interview is clipped, so we don’t get the context. Why is that? Oh I know that. He’s shit stirring and nothing more. I should have qualified what I said with that he was obviously talking about being a field agent. ---
**Author:** ![MaleBox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MaleBox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaleBox)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/38 "2004-08-13T15:21:52Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The Whig party didn’t exist during Jefferson’s presidency. It was created much later for the specific purpose of opposing Andrew Jackson. I got my info from [here](http://www.virtualology.com/levilincoln/). It looks like that page has it wrong. Nevertheless, Jefferson never said “To the victor goes the spoils” or any variation thereof. And Bush has a track record of finding people who agree with his broad ideology, regardless of the skills the position requires. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/39 "2004-08-13T16:18:56Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Certainly, it is to be hoped that somebody will post a real cite in due course. But sadly, the spoils system prevails 99% of the time. > Can anybody think of a cross-party appointment to an important position? The ambassador to Tahiti is a spoils position. The directorship of the CIA should have, especially in this day and age, gone to the most qualified individual, not to the guy who was campaigning for the job as Tenet left. As to important positions cross-party. Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, who was appointed by WJ Clinton is the most recent and important. David Gergen, who was a presidential advisor to several Republican presidents was sought as an advisor by Clinton, even though he’s a conservative and a Republican. So it can be done. Even within the party, it would be nice to see a more moderate or less ideological conservative consulted occassionally by Bushco. Although those that were in the beginning seem to have set up a cottage industry of writing books burning the guy, so maybe he’s a bit gun shy at htis point. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258/40 "2004-08-13T19:16:37Z")
Ummm, people? This is some scary stuff right here. [Porter Goss sounds seventh trumpet, the seal is open!](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5675992/site/newsweek/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/porter-goss-cheney-cats-paw/259258.md?page=3)