# Portland's "no on fluoride" morons **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532 "2013-04-23T20:17:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/21 "2013-04-24T04:49:35Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Fluoridated toothpaste and fluoride treatments at the dentist are great, if you can afford it for a passel of kids in a poor family. Fluoridated water exists so that _everybody_ can have at least some semblance of dental health, as most everyone who lives in a city has access to city tap water, either at home or from public sources. Rotten teeth eventually mean ER visits, which we all get to pay for. My sister-in-law and brother-in-law lived beside a family who couldn’t afford food for their kids (they were over at my relatives’ house eating regularly). I don’t know this for sure, but logic says that a family who can’t afford food isn’t buying a lot of toothpaste and fluoride rinses. I was raised on well water - just today I went and got my first bridge put in. Countless cavities, six crowns, two root canals, one extraction, and one bridge - that’s what Calgary’s kids have to look forward to now. I hope they enjoy it as much as I have. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/22 "2013-04-24T05:00:08Z")
My own frickin’ \*father \*started believing this anti-fluoride crap 20 or so years ago. And he used to be quite level-headed and scientifically literate. He now believes that Australia is the only place in the world that still fluoridates its water, and that it causes all manner of disease, especially cancer. Why then do we have no more disease than comparable countries? No answer, he simply cannot discuss this (or any health-related) subject on a rational basis, just repeats the exact same sentence over and over and over. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/23 "2013-04-24T05:19:22Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I have a cousin who is a walking ad for water fluoridation, she is a CTer, supporter of the Branch Davidians and hasn’t had flouride in 15 or so years. Her mouth is a nasty scraggle of broken rotted teeth. Should I send a picture? > > **Capt** [unzips] Please. [hangs head in shame] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/24 "2013-04-24T05:55:47Z")
Fluoridation does indeed keep the teeth strong and healthy. This is why all vampires support it. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/25 "2013-04-24T06:01:39Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > We lost fluoride in our water in Calgary a couple of years ago - the junk science morons won… And they moved south. We’ve got a pile of them here, complaining about “medication without our consent,” lobbying city council, and writing numerous letters-to-the-editor of the local paper. My veterinarian neighbour is fighting the good fight against them; but in spite of the fact that he is extremely knowledgeable in mammalian and avian biology and biochemistry; keeps up-to-date with the latest research in veterinary and human matters; reviews respected human and veterinary scientific journals on topics involving water fluoridation (after all, horses, cows, pigs, dogs, and cats drink local water too); can cite favorable-to-fluoridation conclusions from such sources as the American CDC, the Canadian Dental Association, and similar; and has concluded that fluoridated water is an ultimate benefit, he is dismissed as a crank by uneducated people whose only cite is “Well, Calgary got rid of it.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/26 "2013-04-24T06:11:39Z")
What a bunch of shitty shit. Water fluoridation is probably one of the great scientific success stories of our time. My mother even gave me fluoride tablets as a kid, and I haven’t had a SINGLE cavity yet (knock on wood) and I’m nearly 27. Just an anecdote, I know, but the statistics showing improved tooth health and water fluoridation is irrefutible. I’m just so fucking sick and tired of this. I can’t stand it. This is 2013 people! We are supposed to have moved beyond all this anti-science crap. ☹ ☹ ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DHMO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@DHMO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DHMO)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/27 "2013-04-24T10:45:49Z")
The discussion is a little more nuanced than this thread would indicate. We discussed this [same topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=671570) not too long ago, and what I said in that context is, I believe, still relevant: > [@Wichita, Kansas, the Kansas State Republican Party and FLAMING IDIOCY\`](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wichita-kansas-the-kansas-state-republican-party-and-flaming-idiocy/640323/32): > > I would like to take this opportunity to weigh in on this discussion. I have been a Water Treatment Professional for almost 19 years, in Florida and Colorado. I have worked with domestic water supply fluoridation in both states. It is an unquestionable fact that fluoridated domestic water has a salutary effect on the incidence of dental caries in children. > > The discussion is _not_ whether fluoridation is effective in the doses currently used in municipal water supplies (it is)—it is whether the money spent is being used as efficaciously as possible. > > In a [typical water utility](http://www.denverwater.org/SupplyPlanning/WaterUse/), the percent of treated water used by residential consumers is about 65% of the total (48% single-family homes, 17% multi-family homes,) the remainder being used by business, industry, and agriculture. Of this figure, about 6% is used from the faucet (as opposed to lawn watering/shower/toilet/laundry/etc.) This includes all cooking, dishwashing and other non-consumption uses. Water used in cooking will lose almost all the fluoride content due to the heat involved, and contributes a negligible benefit. > > Even including mixed drinks (as stated above—lemonade, kool-aid, tea, coffee and all other drinks made from tap water), the total percentage of tap water consumed by the target demographic (young children most prone to dental caries) is a small percentage of the water consumed from the faucet. A significant fraction of the drinks most popular with the target demographic are sport drinks (Gatorade and such), power drinks (Red Bull, etc.), soft drinks (Coke and Pepsi products, for example) and bottled water, fruit juices and iced tea. None of these has significant fluoride content, and yet make up a sizeable fraction of the liquids consumed by our target demographic. > > If the families of these young children supervise a conscientious program of oral hygiene, using fluoridated toothpaste, and regular dentist visits with [COLOR=black][FONT=Trebuchet MS]professional [/FONT][/COLOR]teeth cleaning and fluoride treatments, the benefit of municipal water fluoridation is trivial (_not_ non-existent, but of negligible utility.) > > The premise of introducing medication into the municipal water supply to provide a net benefit to about 1% of the utilities’ consumers is, to say the least, a questionable use of taxpayer resources. Many studies have concluded that the same resources could more profitably be used in other ways, with no loss of benefit to the community. > > Add in the expense of transporting, storing, metering and disposing of the fluoride compounds at the Water Treatment Facility, considering that fluoride compounds are considered hazardous materials, and there are significant city, state and federal regulations dictating all facets of fluoride handling and disposal, and the net cost/benefit equation tilts dramatically to the negative. > > That there are many reasons for public water supplies to have fluoridation is undeniable. Many families do not encourage regular brushing with fluoride toothpaste, or provide regular professional care, and children in these families will derive a significant advantage from municipal fluoridation. The thesis underlying municipalities such as Wichita’s decision to not fluoridate is that the resources could be allocated in a much more useful way to accomplish the same ends. There are families for whom regular dentist visits, fluoride toothpaste and other simple measures are not practicable. If the same resources used to fluoridate the municipal water supply were used, instead, to provide access to these materials at no cost to the consumer, some studies have shown that the net benefit to the community would be similar. There are communities which provide fluoride compounds in such comestibles as milk and salt, as well as fluoride supplements. The advantage is that dose may be more tightly controlled, the compounds would be consumed by individuals who have made a conscious decision to ingest them, and the community could freely provide these items to those who desire them at a cost much less than fluoridating the entire community’s water supply, whether they desire it or not. There is also compelling evidence that fluoride is most effective as a topical application (toothpaste, mouthwash, rinse, gel, etc.) rather than systemic dosages. Fluoride in the public water supply has been one of the greatest health achievements in history, a fact which is undeniable. The question before many members of the voting public is, “Is this the _ **best** _ way to provide this benefit?” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/28 "2013-04-24T12:39:27Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > These people have got to be in the same brain trust as the anti-vax crowd. It’s part of the phenomenon of crank magnetism. Water fluoridation, vaccination, chemtrails, aspartame, you name it…all part of the government-corporate plan to [sicken](http://globalistagenda.org/health.htm) and [kill us](http://www.infowars.com/blaylock-fluorides-deadly-secret/) with the goal of selling us more stuff. Makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/29 "2013-04-24T12:58:31Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Fluoridated toothpaste and fluoride treatments at the dentist are great, if you can afford it for a passel of kids in a poor family. Fluoridated water exists so that _everybody_ can have at least some semblance of dental health, as most everyone who lives in a city has access to city tap water, either at home or from public sources. Rotten teeth eventually mean ER visits, which we all get to pay for. Years ago, I moved to Bend, Oregon. On my first visit to the dentist, as soon as she saw my teeth she asked me where I’d moved from, because it was obvious that I wasn’t local. I asked her how she could tell, and she said it was because I didn’t have the “microcavities” that the locals had- because I had clearly grown up in an area which had fluoridated water. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/30 "2013-04-24T13:51:01Z")
**DHMO** , there was something I forgot to ask you last time around: is that 6% figure really accurate for Florida? I thought watering and stuff was generally done with reclaimed water, which I presume is not flouridated. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/31 "2013-04-24T14:08:30Z")
[QUOTE=HL Mencken] Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=HL Mencken] Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazies; [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=HL Mencken] Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage. [/QUOTE] We can’t have fluoridated water and democracy simultaneously. Benevolent dictatorship is the obvious solution. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/32 "2013-04-24T16:35:09Z")
We are on a well. So when I brush my teeth, I always swallow a little bit of toothpaste in order to consume some fluoride. I bet that would drive my conspiracy-obsessed friend nuts if he knew. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/33 "2013-04-24T17:12:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I saw one source that indicated that the Portland public schools will give out free fluoride rinses. They do provide fluoride tablets but the effectiveness is limited. Kids only get them on school days (you can’t take them home), so nothing on weekends/holidays and all of summer. There is also a stigma against it for whatever reason. Kids find it embarrassing to go up in front of the class to get their fluoride tablet. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/34 "2013-04-24T17:27:23Z")
> [@DHMO](#): > > Fluoride in the public water supply has been one of the greatest health achievements in history, a fact which is undeniable. The question before many members of the voting public is, “Is this the _ **best** _ way to provide this benefit?” I get what you’re saying, but if there really are better ways of providing it, why aren’t we? On a theoretical level, there are lots of ways that seem to make more sense than adding it to the water supply. Yet dental health is consistently better where it is added. Until it is proven that other options are equally effective - both from a scientific aspect as well as a social aspect - then I think it’s disingenuous to argue against it. The science is easy. It’s delivering the fluoride to everyone that we haven’t been able to figure out, other than adding to the water supply. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/35 "2013-04-24T17:37:15Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > \he is dismissed as a crank by uneducated people whose only cite is “Well, Calgary got rid of it.” :rolleyes: That was one of the things that I was afraid of - that Calgary’s shameful actions will be held up as a good thing by junk science morons. **DMHO** , I don’t doubt what you’re telling us; I don’t think the junk science morons care in the slightest about what you’re talking about; they only want the Evil Flouride (their usual spelling) Chemical out of their water. Never mind that it is found naturally in a lot of water; never mind all the studies showing the benefits; never mind that there might be better ways to accomplish healthy fluoridation; they just want it out, and they don’t care what the results will be. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/36 "2013-04-24T18:24:58Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I get what you’re saying, but if there really are better ways of providing it, why aren’t we? It might not be “better” but certainly fluoridating other things is a valid option. France fluoridates its salt, for example, and not its water. But the idea there may be better substances is a tad overstated. Not everybody drinks milk or consumes dairy products (especially the lactose intolerant). And while salt works, we don’t have town by town salt companies. And that’s really the problem. Every municipality provides water. Individual towns can’t control national salt production. Or even local milk (or at least guarantee everybody drinks it). And distributing supplements can be pricy and we have a hard enough time convincing taxpayers roads are worth paying for, much less medicinal supplements, much less getting insurance companies to cover any more stuff. Water is one of the few universally available things we can fluoridate and fluoridate cheaply to which everybody not only has access but can be reasonably guaranteed to be able to consume without thinking much about it. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/37 "2013-04-24T19:08:23Z")
I’ve given up the struggle with my family in Portland and my wife’s family out in the rural nowhere. Their pristine revitalizing well water, tapped beneath their flood drainage plain land and filtered through 100 years of agricultural pesticides, fertilizers and livestock, is in no way contributing to the endless cavities and rotting teeth. Why, nature and evolution never intended humans to ingest such dangerous chemicals like flouride, so it must be harmful (they straightfacedly argue while sipping from their Pepsi). I grew up with flouridation. One cavity my whole life, neither insane nor under government mind control. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/38 "2013-04-24T19:08:28Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I’m just so fucking sick and tired of this. I can’t stand it. This is 2013 people! We are supposed to have moved beyond all this anti-science crap. ☹ ☹ ☹ Indeed. That is why the media, blogosphere and Intertubes now are, apart from this one little fluoride thing, entirely free of climate-change denial, evolution denial, racial pseudoscience, alternative-medicine bullshit . . . ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/39 "2013-04-24T19:09:52Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > We are on a well. So when I brush my teeth, I always swallow a little bit of toothpaste in order to consume some fluoride. I bet that would drive my conspiracy-obsessed friend nuts if he knew. 😛 Does that work? Is the fluoride in toothpaste absorbed into the bloodstream if swallowed? If so…cool! (I live in a water district that rejected fluoridation. Pigshit bastards…) (I’ve always wanted to find a toothpaste I could swallow, because I hate spitting…) ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532/40 "2013-04-24T19:44:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > We are on a well. So when I brush my teeth, I always swallow a little bit of toothpaste in order to consume some fluoride. I bet that would drive my conspiracy-obsessed friend nuts if he knew. 😛 Fluoride only needs to be applied topically to your teeth for maximum benefit. Although it’s not going to hurt you, there’s no need to ingest it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/portlands-no-on-fluoride-morons/656532.md?page=3)