# Poser Wiccans piss me off **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452 "2001-11-15T03:48:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/41 "2001-11-15T07:57:04Z")
Bleh… I’m going to say one more thing. Movies like The Craft and shows like Buffy and Charmed are _entertainment_. They might be written by people who spent a few hours at the library, but if it comes down to “Do we make this accurate or do we make this something people want to watch?” the latter always wins. I have a website on basic angeology. I don’t profess to be some master of angelic lore, but I try to keep it accurate and understandable. I make a real attempt to keep it away from New Age views simply because my site deals with the Judeo-Christian angel and most ‘modern’ books on angels stray pretty far from it. I get a lot of mail from people who’ve just seen Dogma or The Prophecy and asking me if what those movies showed was true (or at least true according to commonly held beliefs). Most of it isn’t. Someone read through the basic books on angels and threw enough of what they read into a plotline to make it sound believable and accurate without worrying about how accurate it really is. No real problem with me; I study it from a non-religious stance so it’s not as if these people are offending my faith or anything. I simply correct what the movies taught and point them to literature that contains the “correct” information. But if I ever met someone who tried to argue with me that there is an angel in Judeo-Christian lore named Loki who was a buddy of Satan, I’d be sorely tempted to beat them senseless with a copy of Davidson’s _A Dictionary of Angels_ until they bothered to open it. I imagine you feel much the same, Lucki. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/42 "2001-11-15T08:30:39Z")
Just to shed a little light on Wicca, here’s what [Cecil has to say about it](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/991029.html). And, **Jophiel** I hope I don’t offend you if I ask you if you’re kidding. “Angeology?” ---
**Author:** ![tavalla](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tavalla/32/89_2.png) [@tavalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tavalla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/43 "2001-11-15T08:54:27Z")
**MGibson** , on the off-chance you were asking serious questions… > [@](#): > > **So you can’t be a Wiccan if you happen to live in a major metropolitan area? What about cities without any forest nearby?** Plenty of people manage fine living in major metropolitan areas. Acres of untouched forest isn’t a necessity, but something living and growing is a good thing. I’ve made do with potplants on a balcony (herbs you can use in ritual work can be just as good). Mindset rather than acreage. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I thought Wiccans always found their own path. They can practice their religion in many different ways. Are you the final authority when it comes to Wicca? Are you in fact the Grand Poobah?\*\* Yep, but the path doesn’t begin and end with buying a pentagram pendant and declaring, “I’m a Wiccan! Look at me!” There’s just a _little_ more to it than that. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/44 "2001-11-15T09:03:12Z")
OK, so I’m fairly ignorant of wicca, so correct me where I’m wrong but to me this whole thread is bizarre. Wicca is a made up religion that never existed 200 years ago. There’s no formal body to codify Wiccan practice or even belief. I’ve never met two WIccans who believe the same thing, yet here we have a whole group of people discussing good and bad WIcca, what is and isn’t required to be a Wiccan. What gives. At least Christians can argue over what’s been written in a Holy Book. There isn’t any Holy Book of WIcca is there? I practice a mishmash of Buddhism, Christianity and traditional Aboriginal religion with a bit of whatec=ver I like thrown in, how can you tell that I’m not a Wiccan? Hell how can I tell, and on what authority? To an outsider the whole thing seems ludicrous. Someone invents a religion based in part on ancient practices but largely just fabricated on the spot, a lot of other people add to it and take away from it and then one person starts saying to another that you haven’t done what’s necessary to be a Wiccan. Based on what? If I claim to be a Wiccan how do you know I’m not? What is the standerd for Wicca? Consider me both ignorant and confused. ---
**Author:** ![tavalla](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tavalla/32/89_2.png) [@tavalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tavalla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/45 "2001-11-15T11:06:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaspode \* > \*\*To an outsider the whole thing seems ludicrous. Someone invents a religion based in part on ancient practices but largely just fabricated on the spot, a lot of other people add to it and take away from it and then one person starts saying to another that you haven’t done what’s necessary to be a Wiccan. Based on what? If I claim to be a Wiccan how do you know I’m not? What is the standerd for Wicca? > > Consider me both ignorant and confused. \*\* Yeah, it definitely has its “whathefu…?” moments. There’s Gardnerian Wicca, Alexandrian Wicca, Dianic Wicca, probably around 302 others, and then you have people like me, eclectic solitaires who have largely built their own systems, taking bits and pieces from here and there, and conform to no “ian”. My personal answers on your questions: **There isn’t any Holy Book of WIcca is there?** One book that Wiccans worldwide look to for guidance? No. But, There are a few things they all seem to have in common (and there are probably exceptions even to this). “An it harm none, do what thou wilt” is pretty widespread, as is a belief that what you do to others will come back to you, so there is some degree of shared context. Different “traditions” do share some similarities so, if you were to visit a Gardnerian-based coven in Melbourne and then one in Phoenix, you’d find they share a lot more than, say, Dianic and Alexandrian covens practicing next door to each other. That may not be a Holy Book of Wicca exactly, but it’s some sense of cohesiveness for those strands. **I practice a mishmash of Buddhism, Christianity and traditional Aboriginal religion with a bit of whatec=ver I like thrown in, how can you tell that I’m not a Wiccan? Hell how can I tell, and on what authority?** I’ve tried to answer this coherently several times, but I keep having to delete what I typed because kept coming out all jumbled. The final version: Largely your own authority. That’s a serious answer; it seems to be something you decide for yourself. However, declaring oneself Wiccan isn’t something one should take lightly, any more than calling oneself Islamic, Hindu, Christian, whatever. Since being Wiccan does bring certain moral imperatives with it (what, exactly, they are will differ from person to person and coven to coven), one should think seriously before taking that step. There’s another reason why calling oneself Wiccan is useful, but it’s quite prosaic. It’s a matter of identity, as much as anything else. If I say I practice an eclectic, developing but (mostly) internally consistent set of spiritual and ethical rules reached after a few years’ consideration, a) it’s one hell of a mouthful, and b) people go, “what are you talking about?” But if I say I’m a Wiccan, they’ve got at least an idea. They might not get the specifics of it, but they understand the general idea. So, in that way, it’s a kind of shorthand. Does that help? If your answer is, “No, not much,” I don’t blame you. Wicca does have its traditions, but it’s an umbrella term for a whole bagful of beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/46 "2001-11-15T11:39:36Z")
Could someone list what the basic things any ‘true’ Wiccan would believe? I understand there are different kinds of Wiccans, but in other religions you can find things that all the sects hold in common belief - all Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God, all Jew’s believe that God gave Moses rules that all Jews are to follow, all Moslems believe that Allah is the one God and Muhammed was his prophet - is there a defining belief that can be said to be true of all Wiccans? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/47 "2001-11-15T13:14:22Z")
**Angel** , I’m beginning to really like you. Maybe some of you people haven’t been in contact with many teenyboppers lately. When I was about 14, I knew this girl who called herself Wiccan. She ran around putting “hexes” on people. Oh yeah, good PR for Wicca there. The issue isn’t people who don’t understand their spirituality yet. It’s the people who say they’re Wiccan to be different, cool, and not out of genuine interest or devotion. (And since Wicca is, as I understand, a very nature-focused religion, yeah, some nature would be nice.) ---
**Author:** ![Lucki\_Chaarms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lucki\_Chaarms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucki_Chaarms)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/48 "2001-11-15T13:25:57Z")
Badtz- I think that the following statement would apply to be a general system for Wicca: Wiccans are theists, sometimes worshipping one, sometimes worshipping many Gods, and usually accepting the idea that all the Gods are different faces of a larger Spirit. Wiccans believe that it is possible to empower yourself through workings with Spirit. Wiccans believe in an Earth centered life with a positive outlook and they believe that with their poweer comes a responsibility to harm none, lest they be harmed. And to the “Wicca is new, and is therefore a fraud” group, allow me to disagree in the sense of putting my foot up your ass. I get this a lot, and NO, it is not ancient. Anyone who takes the time to study it, however, will recgnize that it is spiritually descended from the older religions, more like EVERY religion. When I think about what Spirit’s like, I look at all the ways people have seen Spirit in the past, and learn from that. Wicca did not come from any specific ancient religion or book, and I’m not Gardnerian, Dianic, Alexandrian, or any other specific sect. I am a Wiccan, and I practice an new take on an old craft, which is just as valid. We are communicating with the same Spirit that all the others have before, and that makes Wicca descended. Not directly, but spiritually linked. LC ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/49 "2001-11-15T14:00:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\ ***Angel** , I’m beginning to really like you. > > Maybe some of you people haven’t been in contact with many teenyboppers lately. When I was about 14, I knew this girl who called herself Wiccan. She ran around putting “hexes” on people. Oh yeah, good PR for Wicca there. > \*\* Which is different then a grown person casting protection spells in what way? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/50 "2001-11-15T14:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by saffostarr \* > > **wannablessedbes** > > I will now steal this term for my personal use. Thank you. \*\* Sorry, that’s copyrighted by the WB. > [@](#): > > You know nowdays every girl with a henna tattoo and a spice rack thinks she’s a sister to the dark ones. Bunch of wanna-blessed-bes. Talk, all talk. Blah blah Gaia, blah blah moon, menstrual life-force thingy. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/51 "2001-11-15T14:33:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MGibson_ > > **Which is different then a grown person casting protection spells in what way?** To put it quite simply, Marc? Intent. The intent of a hex is to cause harm–whether it be physical, emotional, or spiritual–to another being. Similarly, the intent of a love spell is to cause emotional harm to someone else. If someone does not want to be in love, forcing them to be in love with you against their will is emotional harm. (I only brought up the love spell thing because so many people seem to ask about it). A protection spell, on the other hand, harms no one. It just attempts to keep you safe. That might be by giving you the common sense not to go into a darkened alley at night, or by spiritually fortifying you, or what have you. It does not–as I fear you might believe–cause lightning to strike anyone who _dare_ approach you. It also doesn’t keep you safe if you decide to do something stupid. Casting a protection spell then jumping off your roof isn’t going to keep you from busting your butt on the way down. (Reminds me of “Do not put your Lord God to the test” 🙂 ). The reason that one of these things is acceptable under Wicca, and the other is not, is because of this: “An’if ye harm none, do what thou wilt.” Basically, do what you want, but don’t hurt anyone, including yourself. The hexes and love spells hurt and manipulate people. They are not “allowed.” The protection spells don’t hurt anyone. They are “allowed.” People who go around casting hexes are violated the _one_ hard and fast rule of Wicca (well, whether it is hard and fast is presumably up for debate, but, AFAIAC, it is). Hence, those who do such things and call themself Wiccan generally have a piss-poor idea of what Wicca is all about. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/52 "2001-11-15T15:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > And, Jophiel I hope I don’t offend you if I ask you if you’re kidding. “Angeology?” Not offended at all. Think of it as about the same thing as Greek mythology. As I said, it’s not a spiritual thing for me, more a matter of what I find interesting. If you care, the site is [Celestial Byways](http://www.inil.com/users/edamoth/celest.html) – might give you a better idea of what I’m talking about. Unless you just mean the term itself, in which case I’ll have to default to: I don’t name these things 🙂 Anyway, I was really just pointing out an experience with another facet of the entertainment industry’s tendency to take a spiritual subject and use as much of it as is convenient for their plot without worrying that a lot of people see 5% research and decide it’s 100% truth. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/53 "2001-11-15T15:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JDeMobray \* > \*\*Linkety-lonkety-link? \*\* Sorry for the delay… Sleep, work, and all that… 😉 [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=97133) you go… ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/54 "2001-11-15T15:43:19Z")
**matt** , you’ll notice I mentioned my concern over the poseurs myself. But **Lucki** was, IMHO in the OP, making a statement that implied a certain amount of Jack Chick-ness - “only I know the one true way.” And, strangely, the post of Lucki’s almost immediately prior to mine didn’t show up when I read the thread yesterday, or my response probably never would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/55 "2001-11-15T16:17:32Z")
The problem here isn’t recent converts, who have faith butlack knowledge of the religion they’ve recently joined. Lucki and the rest of us are NOT ranting about these people. The problem is people without faith claiming allegiance to Wicca, because it is the “in thing”. They view Wicca in the same way they viewed slap bracelets, capri pants, and inside-out sweatshirts. ``` Poseurs of any kind are a bad thing, but I reserve a special hatred for spiritual poseurs. You should not be wearing pentagrams, medicine pouches, rune necklaces, or ahm symbols unless you know what they mean. The anger of Lucki and the others is not confined to Wiccans. I'm Jewish and the wannablessedbe's tick me off to no end. I could rant for pages about the Teen Witch kit. Shrinkwrapped spirituality?! Religious enlightenment for only $19.95! Here it is folks a handy-dandy so;ution to all your religious dillemmas! Yes folks, genuine spiritual wisdom boxed and shipped like Barbi dolls! ``` ---
**Author:** ![Lucki\_Chaarms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lucki\_Chaarms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucki_Chaarms)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/56 "2001-11-15T16:48:13Z")
[The back cover of Teen Witch](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/1567187250/reader/22/ref=lib_dp_/103-6584226-5527842#reader-link) The description that $ilver gives her own book makes me want to fucking puke. Although it’s not strictly defined, I believe that Wicca is a religious system with Magickal elements rather than the other way around. I am actually less offended by the kit than by this. I can see the idea. When a person is just starting out, they may need some of the basic materials that are commonly used in Wicca, and it might be nice to get it all in one place rather than run around and collect it all. The problem is that it’s low quality and overpriced, and clearly a purely commercial venture. Also, anyone with the intelligence of a slug or above would be insulted by the way tha $ilver talks down to them. Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. I don’t like that at all. LC ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/57 "2001-11-15T16:51:48Z")
The distinction, as I see it, is between those for whom Wicca is a religion, and those for whom it is a hobby. A lot of people start out as “Waldenbook Wiccans” mainly because not everyone has access to a more experienced teacher. But is is often very easy to tell when someone is “into Wicca” rather than being Wiccan. And, since these “Crafties” (A term the locals use for someone who picked up hobby-Wicca because they saw “The Craft” and thought it was k3wl) are very proud of their “powers,” they are usually the first and perhaps only Wiccans a lot of people notice. It’s the same way with every group – the loudest ones are never representative of the group as a whole. So dedicated, spiritual Pagans\* like myself often have a negative light cast on us by those who assume that Crafties are, in fact, your average witch. I have been asked to do love spells and revenge spells, and I get some stunned an irritated looks when I state my policy of never EVER wasting my mojo on such stupid shit. Besides which, I have enough bootprints in my ass from Karma’s size 9s. But I digress, and I’m going to be late for work. I also want to add that it’s not the gear you have that makes you Wiccan, nor is it where you live or where you go to practice. As the owner of the local occult shop says, “If you can’t do it naked in a concrete room, you aren’t doing it right.” Meaning, if you MUST have that thrice-blessed super-spiffy Damascus steel athame to perform your work, you need to take a step back and re-evaluate. It’s like those corny movies where the hero finds out that the thungummy they had was nothing, “It was you the whole time.” - While some have argued the apropriateness of the use of the word “Pagan”, I use it in the sense that I am from an earth-based spiritual faith that is not Wicca, though it is fairly close to. As I do not consider myself Wiccan, I use a term that is fairly easy to understand. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/58 "2001-11-15T17:00:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lucki Chaarms \* > **I am actually less offended by the kit than by this. I can see the idea. When a person is just starting out, they may need some of the basic materials that are commonly used in Wicca, and it might be nice to get it all in one place rather than run around and collect it all.** Even there, I can relate to the [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) review that said, “I spent less to get my materials than this kit cost, and they were better ones, too.” ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/59 "2001-11-15T17:20:25Z")
Llewellen deserves a rant of its own. I have a number of friends and relatives who have worked there (including my skeptic husband). Its a business, and not even a particularlly well run one. Want to be a published author?, write a book on astral travel and send it to Llewellen. Never done any astral travel?, doesn’t make any difference, hey, they published a cookbook by a woman where 10% of the recipes were obviously unworkable (and, thanks to one of my friends, the actually dangerous ones were thrown out before publication). They published a book on Zen Golf by a guy who … wait for it…had never played golf (and I don’t think was very knowledgable about Zen). But they do publish Fate, which at least gives the folks at CISOP something to make fun of. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452/60 "2001-11-15T20:10:26Z")
I think you missed the point of the post you were responding to. He was saying that going around doing protection spells makes you look stupid, because protection spells aren’t any more real than hexes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poser-wiccans-piss-me-off/93452.md?page=4)