# Positive Gun News of the Day **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 22, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490 "2015-10-22T22:57:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/641 "2016-04-06T16:51:01Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Shooting is in Prince Georges County, MD. In that county, I’m not sure that I’m shooting someone through my front door. Even if he’s already pried off my storm door. Is there an immediate threat of deadly harm or serious bodily injury if the bad guy hasn’t gotten through the front door yet? I’m not sure that there is, in the hypothetical eyes of a PGC State’s Attorney. And if there isn’t, then why are they shooting? > > I hope it works out for the homeowners. Not a county with favorable defense laws for sure. Here is a bit more [from another source:](http://www.fox5dc.com/news/73964340-story) > [@](#): > > “Well, he had a very large stick with him and he had used that to pry through the storm door and he still had it in his hand when he was fired upon through the door,” said Lt. David Coleman of the Prince George’s County Police Department. “At this point, we have been told by the homeowner that he advised the suspect numerous times to get away from his door, loudly, in a way he could hear through the door.” > … > Police said the homeowner owned the gun legally and appeared to be within his rights under state law to protect himself and his family. I’m sure the DA could file charges but I couldn’t find that they have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/642 "2016-04-07T08:59:34Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Shooting is in Prince Georges County, MD. In that county, I’m not sure that I’m shooting someone through my front door. Even if he’s already pried off my storm door. Is there an immediate threat of deadly harm or serious bodily injury if the bad guy hasn’t gotten through the front door yet? I’m not sure that there is, in the hypothetical eyes of a PGC State’s Attorney. And if there isn’t, then why are they shooting? > > I hope it works out for the homeowners. Yes when I read that, I was thinking the same thing. Even with what the cop said, the burglar had a large stick, how could the homeowner know that? But still, I don’t think the threat to bodily harm was immediate, at least not quite immediate. This is a tough situation, jury trial wise, and I wish the homeowner well. The homeowner’s legal costs might well run over $100,000 here. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/643 "2016-04-07T09:48:57Z")
There’s UK precedent for mistaking a stick for a firearm in poor light. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/644 "2016-04-07T11:16:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There’s UK precedent for mistaking a stick for a firearm in poor light. There’s UK precedent for mistaking a lot of things for a firearm in a poor light - sticks, phones, table legs, etc. Particularly if the holder of such items…has personal characteristics that make him harder to see in poor light as well. But I digress. I would hope that if the owner gave fair warning and the intruder continued to attempt to forcibly enter the house, the state (or county or whomever) would decline to prosecute but of course such things must be investigated to ascertain the facts of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/645 "2016-04-07T11:34:15Z")
IANAL. Homeowner may be alright. From [http://handgunlaw.us/states/maryland.pdf:](http://handgunlaw.us/states/maryland.pdf:) > [@](#): > > The duty to retreat also does not apply if one is attacked in one’s own home. “[A] man faced with the danger of an attack upon his dwelling need not retreat from his home to escape the danger, but instead may stand his ground and, if necessary to repel the attack, may kill the attacker.” Crawford v. State, 231 Md. 354, 361, 190 A.2d 538, 541 (1963). The Court of Appeals said in Crawford, a case in which the defendant fatally shot a younger man who was attempting to break into his home to beat and rob him: > > “\* \* \* A man is not bound to retreat from his house. He may stand his ground there and kill an[y] person who attempts to commit a felony therein, or who attempts to enter by force for the purpose of committing a felony, or of inflicting great bodily harm upon an inmate. In such a case the owner or any member of the family, or even a lodger in the house, may meet the intruder at the threshold, and prevent him from entering by any means rendered necessary by the exigency, even to the taking of his life, and the homicide will be justifiable.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/646 "2016-04-07T15:25:22Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Yes when I read that, I was thinking the same thing. Even with what the cop said, the burglar had a large stick, how could the homeowner know that? But still, I don’t think the threat to bodily harm was immediate, at least not quite immediate. > > This is a tough situation, jury trial wise, and I wish the homeowner well. The homeowner’s legal costs might well run over $100,000 here. It’s forcible entry with a prybar - continuing to break in after being warned. That fact pattern is a good shoot in any jurisdiction in the US. * * * In other news, [Cops: Cocoa store owner shoots 1 robbery suspect; 2 others arrested](http://www.wftv.com/news/local/police-cocoa-store-owner-shoots-alleged-robber_np38k/52589530) > [@](#): > > Police said two armed robbers stormed into the Chevron gas station convenience store on South Cocoa Boulevard and demanded money. > > Officers said when the robbers pointed a gun at the store owner, he pulled out a gun and opened fire, hitting one of them. > > After five armed robberies at his gas station, owner Sowann Suy said he knows it’s shoot or be shot. > > “If you don’t grab the gun, you’ll be dead. He pointed the gun at me and it was very scary. I grabbed my gun and shot him,” said Suy. DGU with no deaths. 3v1 and the one prevailed, though one of the robbers appears to be the getaway driver. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/647 "2016-04-07T15:41:39Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > DGU with no deaths. 3v1 and the one prevailed, though one of the robbers appears to be the getaway driver. How does one aim a firearm at someone who is already pointing one at you and not get shot instead? ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/648 "2016-04-07T15:46:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How does one aim a firearm at someone who is already pointing one at you and not get shot instead? It is very easy to miss with a pistol, even at close range. Just ask Aaron Burr. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/649 "2016-04-07T15:51:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How does one aim a firearm at someone who is already pointing one at you and not get shot instead? You move quickly and decisively. Often, the fellow pointing the gun at you will be conditioned by TV and movies into believing you are absolutely in his power because he is pointing a gun at you. He isn’t expecting anything other than fear and obedience out of you. He may be surprised enough to hesitate or fire hastily and miss. This is where our old friends practice and training pay off. If you’ve learned and practiced drawing smoothly and placing your shot, you may well prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/650 "2016-04-07T15:55:38Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > It is very easy to miss with a pistol, even at close range. Just ask Aaron Burr. Oops I meant Alexander Hamilton. Didn’t he shoot and miss before being killed by Aaron Burr? Rhetorical question, really. Not important. The main thing is that with a pistol it is so easy to move your wrist while pulling the trigger that you miss a target even 5’ away. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/651 "2016-04-07T16:06:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s forcible entry with a prybar - continuing to break in after being warned. That fact pattern is a good shoot in any jurisdiction in the US. Really now? I hope you are correct. Again IANAL (and IANAE) but in California I am not sure that shooting someone through a closed front door, even after the screen door has been pried open. How does the resident inside the front door know that screen door was pried open? I don’t think s/he could see that it was. I am not sure that a jury of my peers would call that a reasonable use of deadly force. I believe the shooter, if this was California, would have to wait until the front door was breeched and the intruder started entering - that is when the threshhold has been breeched. And even at that point, some jurors might not see the shooter’s fear of harm being a reasonable use of deadly force. Again I hope you are right here. I need to brush up on California law. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/652 "2016-04-07T16:26:17Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Really now? I hope you are correct. Again IANAL (and IANAE) but in California I am not sure that shooting someone through a closed front door, even after the screen door has been pried open. How does the resident inside the front door know that screen door was pried open? I don’t think s/he could see that it was. I am not sure that a jury of my peers would call that a reasonable use of deadly force. I believe the shooter, if this was California, would have to wait until the front door was breeched and the intruder started entering - that is when the threshhold has been breeched. > > And even at that point, some jurors might not see the shooter’s fear of harm being a reasonable use of deadly force. > > Again I hope you are right here. I need to brush up on California law. I am a gun owner and a strong 2nd Amendment supporter, and a strong believer in self defense, but I have to say I don’t disagree. I cannot easily imagine shooting through a closed exterior door, obviously not knowing who is on the other side and what exactly is going on. I _think_ I would move as far away as I could while still being able to see the exterior door, and hold my gun ready to shoot if the intruder gets inside. I’m not saying the resident should be charged, let alone tried in court, but I’m a bit uneasy about the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/653 "2016-04-07T16:34:48Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Really now? I hope you are correct. Again IANAL (and IANAE) but in California I am not sure that shooting someone through a closed front door, even after the screen door has been pried open. How does the resident inside the front door know that screen door was pried open? I don’t think s/he could see that it was. I am not sure that a jury of my peers would call that a reasonable use of deadly force. I believe the shooter, if this was California, would have to wait until the front door was breeched and the intruder started entering - that is when the threshhold has been breeched. > > And even at that point, some jurors might not see the shooter’s fear of harm being a reasonable use of deadly force. > > Again I hope you are right here. I need to brush up on California law. Of course a jury can decide - and the 58 different district attorneys in CA can interpret the law differently, but here is the [relevant penal code:](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199) 197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases: … 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or **against one who manifestly intends and endeavors**, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner,\*\* to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence\*\* to any person therein; or, [/quote] A bare fear of the above is not sufficient - the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person and the party killing must have acted under the influence of such fears alone. Once a person has forcibly entered a residence, then the resident is presumed to have had the fear to meet the requirement in section 198. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/654 "2016-04-07T16:50:59Z")
Man i screwed up that quote. At least the link works. I too would be uneasy to shoot through a door without visibility to the target. Rule 4 and all. Though it’s not clear if the person was visible through the door - could be translucent, security cameras, etc. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/655 "2016-04-07T16:56:27Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I am a gun owner and a strong 2nd Amendment supporter, and a strong believer in self defense, but I have to say I don’t disagree. I cannot easily imagine shooting through a closed exterior door, obviously not knowing who is on the other side and what exactly is going on. I _think_ I would move as far away as I could while still being able to see the exterior door, and hold my gun ready to shoot if the intruder gets inside. I’m not saying the resident should be charged, let alone tried in court, but I’m a bit uneasy about the situation. Roughly 15 years ago I was renting the second floor of a house. The only way in or out was through a door and up the stairs to my “apartment”. One summer day I was home alone, with the downstairs door open but the screen-door locked, for ventilation. A man began banging on my door. I, not expecting anyone, ignored him. He began screaming and kicking at the door. I realized if he broke through the door I had no way out, other than jumping out a window. I got my gun and called the local police. I told the dispatcher what was going on and asked that she alert the responding officer that I was armed and planned on shooting in self defense if it came to that. Then I cautiously walked 3/4 of the way down my stairs until I could see the guy. I yelled and he saw that I was pointing my gun at him. I told him the cops were on their way, but that if he breached the door I would empty my gun into him. That made him stop and think, but then he began wrenching the door again, yelling that he just wanted to talk with her. The cops arrived and cuffed him. Turns out he was drunk and thought some woman he was seeing lived at my address. The cop told me he thought I handled the situation appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/656 "2016-04-07T17:08:27Z")
A similar situation happened just a few months ago to a family friend. The friend is a 25 year old woman who lives alone. She owns a pistol and has practiced with it, with her dad. She was at home one night and someone started banging loudly at the door, turning the door knob and yelling. She grabbed her pistol and shouted through the door for the person to leave, and that she had a gun. They continued yelling and trying to get in. Our friend called 911 and said someone was forcibly trying to break into her townhouse, and that she would shoot if they got in. She continued to shout for the person to leave. Thankfully, the guy never got in, and she never fired a shot. The cops showed up fairly quickly, and it turns out it was a very drunk guy who had the wrong townhouse. He thought he was trying to get into his own unit and was yelling for his roommate. My friend was very shaken and very upset, and told the cop if the guy had broken in she would have shot him. The cop told her she would have been entirely in the right to do so. Another situation where shooting through the door would have been a very bad thing to do, even if possibly lawful on the part of the resident. Unfortunately, determining who is a harmless drunk and who is a crazed, dangerous intruder isn’t easy. I haven’t gotten a chance to talk with this young lady about the incident, but was told about it by her mother. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/657 "2016-04-07T17:33:11Z")
A similar situation happened to a business associate. In California, Santa Clara County. Late at night, her husband out of town, her 5yo daughter asleep in the bedroom. Loud knocking on the door, and she’s not expecting anyone. I don’t have complete details - not wanting to pry (much), business associate and not a close friend, etc - but what appears to have happened is that she gets her pistol, moves to the front door and stands about 10-15 feet away, pistol at the ready, locked and cocked and pointed down 45°, and she is ready to identify then shoot in case the person enters. The man is banging on the door and shouting loudly to let him in. She looks quickly through the peep hole, she doesn’t recognize him and he’s holding a cell phone to his ear, and she returns to her ready position. The man is now yelling, “What do you mean you can’t hear me knocking? I’m right here at your door!” Presumably on the phone. A little later the ruckus stops. The guy leaves. Apparently he had the wrong address. She was ready to shoot if needed, if he entered. She did not have time to get her phone. Fortunately, DG at the ready, not used, not needed. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/658 "2016-04-07T20:03:50Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Oops I meant Alexander Hamilton. Didn’t he shoot and miss before being killed by Aaron Burr? Rhetorical question, really. Not important. The main thing is that with a pistol it is so easy to move your wrist while pulling the trigger that you miss a target even 5’ away. As I understand it, he didn’t miss, but it was either a misfire (pulled the trigger too early?) or else he intentionally fired away from Burr, as was custom during some duels when you had no intention of harming the other person but didn’t want to back out. > [@Bullitt](#): > > Really now? I hope you are correct. Again IANAL (and IANAE) but in California I am not sure that shooting someone through a closed front door, even after the screen door has been pried open. How does the resident inside the front door know that screen door was pried open? I don’t think s/he could see that it was. I am not sure that a jury of my peers would call that a reasonable use of deadly force. I believe the shooter, if this was California, would have to wait until the front door was breeched and the intruder started entering - that is when the threshhold has been breeched. > > And even at that point, some jurors might not see the shooter’s fear of harm being a reasonable use of deadly force. > > Again I hope you are right here. I need to brush up on California law. I don’t know the rule in general, but there is nothing special about CA despite their gun laws. It is actually a [Castle doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#States_with_a_castle_law) state. I do believe that other people have done similar and not been charged. > [@Orwell](#): > > I am a gun owner and a strong 2nd Amendment supporter, and a strong believer in self defense, but I have to say I don’t disagree. I cannot easily imagine shooting through a closed exterior door, obviously not knowing who is on the other side and what exactly is going on. I _think_ I would move as far away as I could while still being able to see the exterior door, and hold my gun ready to shoot if the intruder gets inside. I’m not saying the resident should be charged, let alone tried in court, but I’m a bit uneasy about the situation. I am glad that it worked out, but it is possibly a [violation of the 4th rule](http://www.donath.org/Rants/TheFourRules/). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/659 "2016-04-08T02:29:05Z")
If he has a crowbar, breaking into the house, open the door and say, “Come on in, Mother Fucker!” One must be legal before one shoots someone. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/positive-gun-news-of-the-day/735490/660 "2016-04-08T03:41:04Z")
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