# Possesion Is Nine \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Of The Law **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2001, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225 "2001-07-30T13:47:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/1 "2001-07-30T13:47:24Z")
Is the correct saying: Possesion is nine tenths of the law? —OR— Possesion is nine points of the law? I can understand the word “tenths,” it makes common sense. Of course we are talking about the law, which means that common sense has nothing to do with the topic. 🙂 I’ve always used tenths, but I have a friend who SWEARS that the original saying uses the word “points”. What’s the deal here? ---
**Author:** ![Tedster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@Tedster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tedster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/2 "2001-07-30T13:58:20Z")
That’s the original-- “Points”; Now, I swear I’ve heard something about “On banded knee” but of course it gets twisted to “On bended knee” not surprisingly. I had a boss who talked about something being a “mute point” which I didn’t bother correcting, sometimes it’s just smarter that way. In a more modern vein, I hear people say “Sorry, My Bad” which I thought I’d heard originally as “Sorry, My Bag” so… ---
**Author:** ![LightTracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ab097/32.png) [@LightTracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightTracer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/3 "2001-07-30T13:59:52Z")
Nine **tenths**!! ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/4 "2001-07-30T14:58:37Z")
I’ve always heard 9/10ths. To my ears, nine points just doesn;t make sense. Of course, if it’s an archaic usage… ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/5 "2001-07-30T15:03:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LightTracer \* > Nine **tenths**!! That just doesn’t sound right. Posession is 90% of the law? Or in other words, 90% of law relates to posession? “Nine tenths” brings an air of math into this that just doesn’t sit well with me. ---
**Author:** ![headshok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@headshok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/headshok)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/6 "2001-07-30T15:46:33Z")
[Possession is nine points of the law](http://www.xrefer.com/entry/635733) > [@](#): > > This term originally alluded to nine elements that would aid someone’s lawsuit, among them a good lawyer, good witnesses, a good jury, a good judge, and good luck. In time, however, the term was used more for squatter’s rights. **[Late 1500s]** I’ve always heard “tenths” myself, but it seems to have spun off from an older phrase. ---
**Author:** ![dylan\_73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecccb3/32.png) [@dylan\_73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dylan_73)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/7 "2001-07-30T16:15:22Z")
No cite, because I can’t find it, but… I’d always heard “nine-tenths of the law”. I later read somewhere that the original was “nine points of the law” and that “nine-tenths” was a corruption of this, and a pretty bad one, since possession in no way makes up 90% of law in any case. I wish I could find the book or site where I read this…might have been this one, of course, but there’s no way I’m going to attempt a search at this time of the day 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/8 "2001-07-30T16:32:35Z")
9/10th is what i’ve heard - usage was to settle disputes - who ever physically has it has a huge advantage (9/10th). ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/9 "2001-07-30T17:01:14Z")
Certainly these days what people mean by 9/10ths is that you’ll have a much harder time getting something from somebody who already has it, even if you do have the law technically on your side. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/10 "2001-07-31T03:10:44Z")
Brewer, in _The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable_ (1894), lists: > [@](#): > > **Nine Points of the Law** Success in a law-suit requires (1) a good deal of money; (2) a good deal of patience; (3) a good cause; (4) a good lawyer; (5) a good counsel; (6) good witnesses; (7) a good jury; (8) a good judge; and (9) good luck. and makes no reference to “nine tenths,” which suggests the nine tenths was a 20th century transformation by people unfamiliar with the older form. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/11 "2001-07-31T03:31:50Z")
except it does not mention “possession is…” so it seems to be an entirely different and unrelated saying. Perhaps that’s where the confission comes from. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/12 "2001-07-31T04:31:18Z")
Well, Bibliomania’s on-line version did not include “possession,” but my fascsimile edition printed on genuine paper has a large section on “Nine” that includes this entry: > [@](#): > > _Possession is nine points of the law – i.e._ several points, or every advantage a person can have short of right. ---
**Author:** ![FarmerOak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@FarmerOak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarmerOak)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/13 "2001-07-31T08:06:02Z")
From **Did Mohawks Wear Mohawks?** , by Bruce Tindall and Mark Watson: > [@](#): > > … (A)n English court ruling of 1774 stated that “possession is very strong; rather more than nine _points_ of the law.” > > … The jusge in that case didn’t fabricate the phrase “nine points of the law.” The saying had been around long before 1774. Originally, it was "_eleven_ points of the law, an apparent reference to the twelve “points” of the compass. Whether twelve points, nine points, or nine tenths, the phrase suggests that possession is by far the most important kind of evidence in any lawsuit over ownership of property. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/14 "2001-07-31T13:34:54Z")
That pretty much wraps it up for me. Maybe I’ll start using the old version just to annoy everyone.🙂 Thanks for the cites. ---
**Author:** ![muttrox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a8b319/32.png) [@muttrox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muttrox)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/15 "2001-07-31T14:24:26Z")
dylan, My interpretation of the modern version (9/10ths) was that if you had possession, you were 90% of the way home free – not that possession law was 90% of all law. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/16 "2001-07-31T16:12:02Z")
Of course, the other side of the 9/10ths argument that I have heard used is the criminal side… as in the “I was just holding it for a friend” defense. That doesn’t free you from the fact that you had it, you’re still in trouble, because “possession is…blah, blah, blah…” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/17 "2001-08-01T12:04:28Z")
For an earlier discussion, see: [Possession 9/10ths of Law?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=43303). ---
**Author:** ![MojoJojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@MojoJojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MojoJojo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/18 "2001-08-01T13:13:53Z")
I’ve always heard that possession is nine tenths of the law 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesion-is-nine-_______-of-the-law/74225/19 "2001-08-02T01:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > … The jusge in that case didn’t fabricate the phrase “nine points of the law.” The saying had been around long before 1774. Originally, it was "eleven points of the law, an apparent reference to the twelve “points” of the compass So possesion is 9/12th of the law (or 3/4th) 😃