# Possesives for names that end in "S". i.e: Jones' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 3, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046 "2002-11-03T01:12:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Inky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7feea3/32.png) [@Inky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inky_1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/1 "2002-11-03T01:12:53Z")
Just a minor little thing thats been bugging me ever since “Bridget Jones’s Diary” was in theaters. I was always taught in school that names that end in “S” are made possesive with a simple apostrophe at the end – “Jesus’ apostles”, etc. But reading the latest Harry Potter book this comes up again “Sirius’s grip on Harry’s shoulder loosened…” Is this a British thing, as both novels are from Brit writers? Is my ‘Elements of Style’ book out-of-date maybe? Or was I just taught wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/2 "2002-11-03T02:04:26Z")
What school did you go to? I always learned that the possessive of a singular adds 's, every time. What you described may have once been more common, but it has pretty well died out by now. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/3 "2002-11-03T02:13:19Z")
This has been discussed before on this Board. It’s a matter of style. Biblical references do not use the double “s.” For example, Moses’ laws, Jesus’ beliefs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/4 "2002-11-03T03:01:03Z")
Moses’s Jesus’s I always use the ‘s with these names. Where does it say not to? It would sound bizarre, or substandard, to leave the ‘s out of a possessive. Like "Here is my friend’ phone number." Or "‘Spare your country’ flag,’ she said" ---
**Author:** ![Beruang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/5 "2002-11-03T03:03:31Z")
I actually had to look this up for work this past week, and was surprised to find (according to Garner’s Dictionary of Modern American Usage) that “Jones’s” and the like is the preferred form. I, too, had been taught not to use the final “s.” Garner does note that stylebooks for newspapers (which tend to be more concerned about space) do allow writers to drop the “s,” but “most authorities who aren’t journalists demand the final -s.” – Beruang ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/6 "2002-11-03T03:19:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*Moses’s > Jesus’s > > I always use the ‘s with these names. Where does it say not to? It would sound bizarre, or substandard, to leave the ‘s out of a possessive. Like "Here is my friend’ phone number." Or "‘Spare your country’ flag,’ she said" \*\* Yes, but those nouns do not end with “s.” Strunk’s manual says not to. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/7 "2002-11-03T04:48:37Z")
Former copyeditor checking in. The exception is classical names in general: Socrates’ running shoes, Jesus’ son. but Diana Ross’s belly button. Words that end in s _and_ are plural get the apostrophe, no “s.” ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/8 "2002-11-03T05:35:03Z")
Any plural gets the apostrophe end, doesn’t it? “The dogs’ bowls were each full.” ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/9 "2002-11-03T06:17:57Z")
Here’s a rather extensive previous thread on the matter: [OK, what’s the final word on the use of apostrophes? (July 2002)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126187) It’s a bit unweildy, at 55 posts. [I tried to summarize the thread about halfway through](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2287752#post2287752), but some questions still remained. ---
**Author:** ![Inky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7feea3/32.png) [@Inky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inky_1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/10 "2002-11-03T06:30:36Z")
Thanks Achernar! That does sort of answer it. I did in fact search ahead of time using “possesives”, “apostrophies” and (perhaps optimistically) “Jones’” as keywords, to no avail. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/11 "2002-11-03T07:21:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jackelope \* > \*\*Former copyeditor checking in. The exception is classical names in general: > > Socrates’ running shoes, Jesus’ son. > > but > > Diana Ross’s belly button. > > Words that end in s _and_ are plural get the apostrophe, no “s.” \*\* Current copyeditor checking in and quoting from the Associated Press Stylebook: "Plural nouns ending in s: Add only an apostophe … "Singular common nouns ending in s: Add ‘s unless the next word begins with s: the hostess’s invitation, the hostess’ seat… "Singular proper names ending in s: Use only an apostrophe: Achilles’ heel, Agnes’ book… “Special expressions: The following exceptions to the general rule for words not ending in s apply to words that end in an s sound and are followed by a word that begins with s: for apperance’ sake, for conscience’ sake, for goodness’ sake. Use otherwise: the apperance’s cost, my conscience’s voice.” Thus ends the reading of the scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/12 "2002-11-03T08:04:42Z")
[SoYouWanna use apostrophes correctly?](http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/minis/mini/wrerrorsMINI/wrerrorsMINI1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/13 "2002-11-03T08:18:54Z")
That’s a pretty good, intro-level source, **xash**. I would say that the only thing they got wrong was when they claim that _it_ is the only noun which does not form its possessive with an apostrophe. This is untrue; _it_ is not a noun. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/14 "2002-11-03T17:07:50Z")
Yes, and of course, all the pronouns act in the same fashion: he-his, she-hers, me-mine, you-yours. The spelling is different, but these are all possessive with an apostrophe. Whether you add an “s” after the apostrophe in nouns ending with “s” depends upon what style manual you subscribe to. Personally, I like JonScribe’s AP, but I bet the Chicago Manual has different rules. Strunk, who has been acknowledged as the leader in the English language, has the rule I previously described. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/15 "2002-11-03T19:08:45Z")
Different publications have variations of all rules, 'tis true. But AP is a pretty generally used standard, and there’s some logic to it. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/16 "2002-11-03T21:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Inky- \* > \*\*I was always taught in school that names that end in “S” are made possesive with a simple apostrophe at the end – “Jesus’ apostles”, etc. … Is my ‘Elements of Style’ book out-of-date maybe? \*\* Huh? “The Elements of Style” say you add an apostrophe and “s”: [http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html#1](http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html#1) Let’s look at the sources: **Chicago Manual of Style** 6.12 The possessive case of singular nouns is formed by the addition of the 's. 6.15 Proper Names. The general rule covers proper names as well as common, including most names of any length ending in sibilants. 6.19 Traditional exceptions to the general rule for forming possessives are the named _Jesus_ and _Moses_ (their emphasis) **Washington Post Desk Book on Style** “Use 's to form the possessive of singular nouns, proper names, and nicknames ending with a sounded s” (i.e., same rule as Chicago Manual) So we have both the book publishing and the newspaper world covered. The logic is simple: 's for singular, ’ for plural. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possesives-for-names-that-end-in-s-i-e-jones/135046/17 "2002-11-04T01:37:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\* > So we have both the book publishing and the newspaper world covered. The logic is simple: 's for singular, ’ for plural. \*\* Except for Jesus and Moses. I wonder now about Isis and other ancient names ending with “s.”