# Possessive punctuation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957 "2009-07-05T03:41:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/1 "2009-07-05T03:41:51Z")
[In this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1755/in-the-elton-john-song-levon-who-is-alvin-tostig) **David** says (emphasis mine): > [@David](#): > > Which, to extend it to the rest of the song, would make Alvin Tostig “ **Jesus’** ” grandfather. I believe when I was little I was taught that when a name ends with an ‘s’ and one wants to indicate possession, apostrophe-s is added. Thus, Jesus’s and not Jesus’ or Jones’s and not Jones’. But I’ve seen the apostrophe-nothing frequently. In typing this post, my spell-checker objects to Jesus’s and offers Jesus’ instead. (Jones is acceptable either way.) If I say something belongs to Jesus, there is an -es sound at the end. The apostrophe indicates (to me, anyway) the break between the final s-sound of the name and the final z-sound of the possessive formation. So what’s the rule? Apostrophe-s, or apostrophe-nothing? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/2 "2009-07-05T03:44:55Z")
I was taught apostrophe-nothing. It’s what I’ve always used. It’s not cut and dried, though- it’s a style issue. Grammar girl gets into it: [http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/apostrophe-plural-grammar-rules.aspx](http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/apostrophe-plural-grammar-rules.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/3 "2009-07-05T03:45:14Z")
The general rule is that it’s -s’s for modern names, -s’ for historical. Hence Marcus’s and Jesus’. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/4 "2009-07-05T03:46:09Z")
Were “Jesus” the plural of “Jesu,” “Jesus’” would be correct. But it isn’t, and it isn’t. “Jesus’s” is what should have been used. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/5 "2009-07-05T03:55:06Z")
Here are the American [rules](http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/6 "2009-07-05T04:03:27Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Here are the American [rules](http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp). From your link: > [@](#): > > **NOTE:** Although names ending in s or an s sound are not required to have the second s added in possessive form, it is preferred. > > Mr. Jones’s golf clubs > Texas’s weather > Ms. Straus’s daughter > Jose Sanchez’s artwork > Dr. Hastings’s appointment (name is Hastings) > Mrs. Lees’s books (name is Lees) So I will continue using apostrophe-s. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/7 "2009-07-05T04:05:12Z")
Heck, I’ve seen a grammar guide that says to use Candice’ and Feliz’s. As far as I can tell, the concept is that Jesus’s (which, incidentally, is not in my spell check) would be pronounced JEE-zuhs-es, while Jesus’ is pronounced JEE zuhsss. As I use the latter pronunciation, I also use the latter spelling. (Not to mention, that’s what all my books about him say. I’m not going to make up my own word.) On the other hand, I do say Candice’s and Feliz’s, so that’s how I spell them. Really, the idea of English having rules is fairly outmoded; it merely has guidelines for formal use. French, on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/8 "2009-07-05T04:17:44Z")
> [@](#): > > **BigT** : Really, the idea of English having rules is fairly outmoded… Why the capitalized R? Why the comma after “Really”? Why the capital “E” in “English”? Why the “ly” added to “fair”? Why the use of a semi-colon after “outmodeled”? Why did you spell “capitalized” with an “a” and not an “o”? Truly, knowing and using the rules of English still serve a good purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/9 "2009-07-05T04:22:17Z")
I thought this was one of the Anglo/American divides. British English prefers Jesus’s and American English prefers Jesus’. Neither is inherently more correct than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/10 "2009-07-05T06:29:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I thought this was one of the Anglo/American divides. British English prefers Jesus’s and American English prefers Jesus’. Or vice versa. From the [_Daily Mail_](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197314/Woman-85-lay-dead-flat-years-noticed-missing.html) (UK): > [@](#): > > Isabella Purves’ body… ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/11 "2009-07-05T10:25:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I thought this was one of the Anglo/American divides. British English prefers Jesus’s and American English prefers Jesus’. Neither is inherently more correct than the other. I am British and I was taught Jesus’. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/12 "2009-07-05T10:33:45Z")
We are all over the map here. I was taught that both are acceptable, but Jesus’ is preferred. ---
**Author:** ![Deanna\_D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Deanna\_D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deanna_D)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/13 "2009-07-05T11:12:23Z")
I was taught that if the name ends with an s, it just gets the apostrophe at the end. I’ve never heard of the ‘apostrophe-nothing’ rule. That one just seems wrong to me somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/14 "2009-07-05T12:05:20Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Here are the American [rules](http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp). The rules are good but not inclusive: The Queen of England’s dog and similar phrases. It can quite complicated and even ambiguous: The son of the Queen of England’s daughter is the daughter of the Queen of England’s son. is four-way ambiguous and two of the ways are tautological and the other two are oxymorons. My rule for making plural of acronyms is to use a lower case s with capitalized acronyms, but an apostrophe s with a lower case acronym. Illogical, but the rules have to bend to the necessity to communicate. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/15 "2009-07-05T13:24:45Z")
This is why editors use style guides. AP doesn’t use the s after the apostrophe for most of these; Chicago (_The Chicago Manual of Style_) uses the s for most names. Exceptions, per Chicago: [ul] [li]Words plural in form, singular in meaning (the United States)[/li][li]Names like “Euripides” (two or more syllables, ends with an “eez” sound)[/li][li]Names and words ending with an unpronounced “s” (Descartes, the marquis)[/li][li]“For \_\_\_ sake” phrases (for goodness’ sake)[/li][/ul] I am summarizing a five-page section here, and not getting into exceptions and peculiarities. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/16 "2009-07-05T14:06:25Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > This is why editors use style guides. AP doesn’t use the s after the apostrophe for most of these; Chicago (_The Chicago Manual of Style_) uses the s for most names. Exceptions, per Chicago: > > [ul] > [li]Words plural in form, singular in meaning (the United States)[/li][li]Names like “Euripides” (two or more syllables, ends with an “eez” sound)[/li][li]Names and words ending with an unpronounced “s” (Descartes, the marquis)[/li][li]“For \_\_\_ sake” phrases (for goodness’ sake)[/li][/ul] > > I am summarizing a five-page section here, and not getting into exceptions and peculiarities. Concur. As with the “Oxford comma”, journalistic style attempts to minimize extra characters (hence AP’s prefrerence), while book and technical-writing style prefers adding the characters to eschew confusion (hence the Vhicago Manual’s preference). IMO (and this is not a rule except for my own writing), use -s’ for the plural possessive (of words with plurals in -s, of course); use -‘s for all other usages, including “oxen’s”, “Jules’s”, and “lovingkindness’s”. Only in those rare usages where no /iz/ sound is appended and tradition calls for -s’ should one violate the rule, as in **Twix** ’s example “for goodness’ sake” or Shakespeare’s “Good friend, for Jesus’ sake forbear” where it’s clear that “Jesus’” is only two syllables in a prosodic piece. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/17 "2009-07-05T17:20:49Z")
I use the Underground station St James’s Park in London every day. Some of the station name boards have James’ and they just look wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/18 "2009-07-05T17:38:50Z")
> [@Deanna\_D](#): > > I was taught that if the name ends with an s, it just gets the apostrophe at the end. I’ve never heard of the ‘apostrophe-nothing’ rule. That one just seems wrong to me somehow. Your rule IS the apostrophe-nothing rule. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/19 "2009-07-05T21:59:19Z")
There is not just one universally accepted rule. This comes up from time to time and links to threads plus other authoritative info can be found at my [unofficial General Questions FAQ](http://www.seiglefamily.com/gqfaq.html#apostrophe). ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possessive-punctuation/501957/20 "2009-07-06T00:22:00Z")
Another distinction is in journalism. In print journalism, they like to save as many characters as possible. That’s why commas are frequently missing from lists before the final and (example: “eggs, milk and cheese” as opposed to “eggs, milk, and cheese.” In print, most of the time, they would omit the superfluous “s.”