Possibility != Existence

I really have no clue what this is but what if our existance is merly lets say a highly advanced computer program per say… lets see how can i explain this… What if a being of somesort created this universe , made up all the laws… etc… so now we are here … sortove like the sims except they cant control the people and everything that we know like physics, and mathmatics are all programmed by them… thus if they want to change the code for gravity to go the oppisite way they could but it may make everything else unbalanced…

Also sorry about my incoherent inconsistant babble… and mispellings i should drink so much and post on boards… But I need to occupy my time!

Libertarian:

So you would not offer this ontological proof as support for a belief in God? If I may ask, why do you bring it up so regularly? (I realise that The Aide asked you to dance in this specific thread).

Whenever anyone brings up the possibility of God not existing, you refer to the impossibility of necessary existence not existing. It is surely possible for necessary existence to exist, but God not to, since God and necessary existence need not be identical. They are merely words with similar meanings. When you state: Necessary -> Supreme, Existence -> Being, I might carry on Necessary -> Fundamental, Existence -> Human to show that it is impossible for Pat Robertson not to exist, or even Supreme -> Diana Ross, Being -> Ghost, to show that it is impossible that the famous soul diva is not undead.

I put it to you that something can exist without being a “Being”.

Welcome gouldisruling, yes the nonimpossible “brain in a jar being fed nonsense” scenario. It pops up quite regularly around here. Libertarian’s beliefs may be a little unorthodox but I have yet to hear him say that he would call someone who actually believed that this was the case “reasonable”. I would call such a person “ill”.

In this case, they coincide. There is no “higher” or more “supreme” existence than existence in every possible world since impossible worlds, by definition, do not exist.

Sentient wrote:

Certainly, I would. And I do. “There is no a priori assumption in the proof that He exists” does not imply anything about the proof’s conclusion. Its conclusion is that God exists.

That’s just like any proof. If you’re going to prove that a triangle is equilateral, you cannot assume that it is equilateral in your premises. That would be begging the question. But your conclusion — which is derived from your premises — will certainly show that it is equilateral. Otherwise, your proof fails.

Here, same same. God is not presumed to exist (thus, "IF He exists, then…). But the conclusion — which is derived from the premises — is that He exists.

The ontlogical proof defines God as the Supreme Being. As I said before, if you can put forward an argument that there is an existence (being) more supreme (necessary) than that which exists in every possible world, I’m willing to listen. But that is the point you must address.

It used to be that when armchair materialists pooh-poohed the ontological argument a la Anselm, what they protested was the appearence that actuality implies necessity. But now that that has been cleared up with modern modal symbology, the protest has switched to how God is defined. Before, it was completely acceptable that God be defined as the Supreme Being. Now, it is not. The only thing that has changed about the argument is that it has now been proved valid. Therefore, you can understand that the new protest raises a suspicion that what the materialist doesn’t like is the conclusion. Any and every means must be used to strike it down because he has already decided what his conclusion would be.

This does not happen among learned materialists, of course. Only among the armchair variety. The learned materialists do not object to the definition. And they do not pretend that the conclusion is dishonestly derived. They assail one or more of the argument’s premises, like “modal necessity always obtains” or something.

Protesting the definition is a waste of time and effort. The definition is what the definition is. There is no semantical trick that can work against it. Calling it IPU instead of God changes nothing because now IPU means Supreme Being. Saying tomayto rather than tomahto does not change what a tomato is.

Sure you could. And in physics, you could speak of force as “legal validity” (the Law definition) and mass as “a pasty mixture of drugs” (the Pharmacological definition). But your equations won’t make any sense.

Alethic logic deals with necessity and possibility. Ontology deals with existence. A modal ontological argument is expected to deal with necessary and possible existence, not with pop singers and gouls — just as a physics equation is expected to deal with mass and energy, not with legal statutes and headache pills.

It is not necessarily a being. It’s just being.

So the proof can be summarised “If God exists then He exists”?

Surely you are doing the same here, by defining God as necessary existence?

SentientMeat wrote:

No. Can the proof of an equilateral triangle be summarized as “If it is equilateral, then it is equilateral”?

You can summarize the proof this way, I suppose:

God is the Supreme Being. If God exists, then he must exist necessarily. It is possible that God exists. Were it not possible, His existence would not be necessary. But if God does exist necessarily, then He exists in actuality. Either it is the case that God exists necessarily, or else it is not. Since His existence is not necessary if it is not possible, then either it is necessary that He exists, or else it is necessary that He doesn’t. So, either it is necessary that God exists or else it is not possible. But we have already said that it IS possible. Therefore, it is necessary that God exists. Since we have said that if God exists necessarily, then He exists in actuality — and we have shown that God does exist necessarily — we can conclude that God exists in actuality. QED.

No. I’ll reprint this:

Alethic logic deals with necessity and possibility. Ontology deals with existence. A modal ontological argument is expected to deal with necessary and possible existence, not with pop singers and gouls — just as a physics equation is expected to deal with mass and energy, not with legal statutes and headache pills.

I agree. I offer that “Supreme Being” is outside its remit.

Again I apologise for the plush furniture I am sitting in, but surely you can understand that when the possibility of God not existing is dispensed with during the laying of the proof’s foundations, it is not surprising when God turns out to exist, and even less surprising when materialists merely smile patiently and wait for the conjurer to hand their watch back.

Has this been demonstrated?

Also, if God exists, but not in this world, and we have no meaningful evidence that God affects this world at all, can He be said to exist in any meaningful way?

How do we know that God is THE supreme being?

Let me try my hand at this:

  1. It is possible that god does not exist.
  2. Therefor, god does not exist in at least one world.
  3. Therefor, god can not be necessary, as he does not exist in every single world.

How’s that work?

God is defined as “Supreme Being”, which is further defined as necessary existence.

It is not possible that necessary existence does not exist.

These definitions therefore preclude the possibility that God does not exist.

20 quid says you can’t follow the pea.

Alright. I define the universe to be God. The universe has necessary existence, because it exists everywhere. Therefore, the universe exists.

This is fun.

And I still haven’t been shown that it is possible that a Supreme Being exists.

Indeed, I believe this is Lib’s take. At first I thought it was merely a handy dodge, but having learned more about his entire worldview (in which eg. atoms are not “real”) I feel this would be an unfair accusation. Nevertheless, I still cannot understand his frustration when materialists refuse to join him in making this assertion.

A thing is possible until it can be shown that it is impossible. You have not shown that God’s existence is impossible.

However, neither has Lib shown that God’s nonexistence is impossible.

SentientMeat

I often find myself leaning back in the plush furniture and listening to discussions of advanced statistical mathematics, or the fine points of theoretical economics, or music theory that is beyond what I have explored. And sometimes, I hear something that peaks my interest. A synapse flashes in my brain, and I sit upright. I have a revelation, and a voice in my head begins to rapid-fire: “Why hasn’t anyone thought of this in four hundred years!?”

I can take the question one of two ways: either I am the genius the world has been waiting for or else the thought has occured to other geniuses and they have figured it out. Depending on which way I take the question, I blurt out either inquiries or declarations. It is when I blurt out the latter that trouble usually ensues.

“The smallest possible number in absolute magnitude is one minus point-nine-bar!” “Macroeconomic predictions fail because the data is incomplete!” “Paul McCartney’s music is primitive because he has no formal training!” *

Sometimes, I encounter impatient people. People who scream back at me, “You idiot!” But sometimes, I am fortunate enough to encounter someone whose interest is in my edification. “Here is proof that one minus point-nine-bar equals zero.” Or “Macroeconomists do not make economic predictions.” Or “McCartney’s musical comprehension is innate.”

I might press on a bit. “But isn’t this an error in your proof?” Or “Didn’t macroeconomists used to make predictions?” Or “Is there any evidence for McCartney’s musical acumen?”

And then they might answer. “No, that’s no error. Here is what Peano says.” Or “Yes, they used to, but this is not 1877 anymore.” Or “See how in this instance, he blends a mixolydian key with a harmonic minor.”

There always comes a point when I must decide the answer to my question to myself. Why has no one thought of this before? And it becomes apparent to me that they have. Once in a blue moon, I might make a point that no one thought of before, but it happens so seldom that it is certainly the exception rather than the rule.

I could continue pressing on. “Peano Schmeano! I’m not talking about math, I’m talking about Jerry Falwell.” Or “This could be 1877 and the calendars are a conspiracy.” Or “I don’t think blending two harmonies that way is very sophisticated.”

Thankfully, though, I almost never do. I thank the good person who expressed an interest in me and was kind enough to share his knowledge with me. I go find a book on mathematics, or economics, or music. I come to understand why one equals point-nine-bar, how macroeconomics has changed, and how beautifully rare true musical innovation really is.

Three good things come out of it for me. One, I am considered a peer by the one who taught me. Two, I get to learn about something that caught my interest. And three, I get to teach someone else whom I care about.

Enjoy your comfortable chair. If you get bored, feel free to turn on the TV. There’s a lot of flies in the room now, and I’ve said everything to you that I could say. We’re in repeat mode now. I’m going to go sit in the study for a bit. Maybe I’ll see you there.


  • Actual examples of viewpoints I have held here at StraightDope, and have changed as a result of listening.

Of course, Lib, my admiration for your eloquence is without limit, and your expertise, patience and kindness as a mentor is peerless.

I am indeed currently reviewing my (dusty) philosphy and logic books due almost entirely to your inspiration. I have always been a difficult and selfish pupil - “Before breaking open the books, try and break open the teacher”. If you ever required illumination in my own personal areas of expertise, the greatest complement I could receive would be that I were half the tutor you are.

If, following my studies, I change my mind about the validity of equating “Supreme Being” with “Necessary Existence”, you will be the first to know.

The logical chain shown in my post proves this definition to be false, then… Right? :slight_smile:

I guess this comes down to which the evaluator considers more “important.” A man-made definition, or a logical proof?

Sentient wrote:

Fair enough.

“The following is, therefore, the natural course of human reason. It begins by persuading itself of the existence of some necessary being. In this being it recognizes the characteristics of unconditioned existence. It then seeks the conception of that which is independent of all conditions, and finds it in that which is itself the sufficient condition of all other things– in other words, in that which contains all reality. But the unlimited all is an absolute unity, and is conceived by the mind as a being one and supreme; and thus reason concludes that the Supreme Being, as the primal basis of all things, possesses an existence which is absolutely necessary.”

Immanuel Kant, The Critique of Pure Reason, Section III: Of the Arguments employed by Speculative Reason in Proof of the Existence of a Supreme Being

I read that last night, noticing “Speculative Reason in Proof of the Existence of a Supreme Being”

(when I said “that” I meant just those few pages, not the whole work!)

Seriously, when I think I’m up to scratch I’ll return and start a thread myself.

Hu-wha? I thought that a thing was neither impossible nor possible until it was shown to be one or the other.