# Possible 3rd Party Forming on the Right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942 "2009-10-24T05:57:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/101 "2009-10-28T05:20:13Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Somebody give **Lemur866** a megaphone and a prominent pedestal in town square. > > This needs to be loudly and consistently repeated. The thing is–I’m one of those small-government “conservatives” that Sam is talking about! During the 80s and 90s I’d easily call myself conservative and happily voted Republican. Heck, I voted for Bush in 2000. Of course in America in the 80s and 90s classical liberals like myself were lumped in with conservatives. Of course the political taxonomy of modern America doesn’t make any logical sense, but it doesn’t have to, so if real liberals were called conservatives, and what were called liberals weren’t liberals but something else, well, that’s descriptive linguististics for you. But the Republican Party and the Conservative movement still haven’t come to grips with the crimes of the Bush administration, and the damage they did to the country. They’re too busy painting Hitler moustaches on Obama. Bush ran the country over a cliff, and the Republican Party and the Conservative movement cheered as he did it. And they’re cheering now for Sarah Palin to lead them! That’s how morally, intellectually, spiritually, psychologically, and ethically bankrupt they are. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/102 "2009-10-28T06:18:03Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > …They hate Obama, not because he increased the deficit or bailed out the financial sector, but because he’s a Democrat. Not always true. Many of them hate Obama because he’s black. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/103 "2009-10-28T06:24:37Z")
The racist edge is not universal, but damn it, it’s real. ---
**Author:** ![cn8of10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@cn8of10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cn8of10)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/104 "2009-10-28T08:09:25Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > New poll out today: Hoffman 31%, Owens 27%, Scozzafava 20%. And since then, Tim Pawlenty has also endorsed Hoffman. > > Still sure he’s going to lose? These numbers come from a rolling poll conducted by the Club for Growth. [Sample #1](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/10/ny-23_hoffman_leads_new_poll.html) was a poll of 300 ‘likely voters’ taken over the course of two days (Oct 24-25) with a margin of error of +/- 5.66% [Sample #2](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/10/ny23_poll_hoffman_5.html) was a sample of 366 ‘likely voters’ taken over the course of two days (Oct 25-26). I still think Hoffman is toast, but it will mean even worse news for the GOP if he pulls this off. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/105 "2009-10-28T08:39:44Z")
Here’s another right-wing poll, giving Hoffman an even bigger lead: [New Poll](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/10/ny23_poll_hoffman_5.html) I agree with pretty much everything you said, though. Small sample size, largish margin of error, suspect impartiality. I wish there were some left-wing or mainstream polls we could use to find some balance. Unfortunately, there aren’t. I don’t necessarily disagree with you about what a win will do to the GOP, or even to the right in general. Splitting the party in two could be electoral disaster. And even if no 3rd party erupts out of this, if this forces the Republicans too far to the right, they’ll alienate independents again and push the power back to the Democrats. I guess we’ll just have to see how it all shakes out. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/106 "2009-10-28T13:53:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I didn’t say the Tea Partiers weren’t representative of contemporary conservatism - I said that the handful of loons you see on TV are not representative of the Tea Partiers. > > The problem a lot of you have is that you hang out in an echo chamber. Your ideas of who the Tea Partiers are come from lefty blogs, the left-wing media, and the left-wing SDMB. You have no sense of who the opposition is other than what you hear after it’s filtered through the commentary of fellow travelers. Sorry, but. When GOP Congresscritters suddenly start saying stupid things that the Teabaggers and other right-wing crazies are saying, I have to believe that _the GOP Congresscritters_ think the stupid things they’re saying are what their base wants them to say. And I have to regard them as the best judges of what they need to say to stay in the good graces of enough voters to get renominated and reelected. There’s nothing echo-chamberish about that. So fuck that shit. > [@](#): > > The reason I stay engaged on the SDMB is precisely because I don’t want to debate in an echo chamber. I’d rather debate the opposition and gain more perspective in how they think. You should try it. Dude, I’ve been debating you for a decade now. And **Bricker** , and **Shodan** and **Starving Artist** and **Scylla** , and **december** and **Weirddave** up until their respective bannings, and so forth. “You should try it.” How do you _miss_ something this obvious?? If something’s been right in front of your face for a decade, how do you not see it?? > [@](#): > > Nor is the right full of crazies. There’s a crazy fringe on the right, and it’s YOU that are trying to turn them into the representatives for everyone on the right. OK, let’s see the Congressional Republicans demonstrate their independence from the crazies. Too late. Don’t put the onus on me, buckaroo. It’s the elected representatives of the party YOU identify with who have voiced their words. When they stop doing that, come back and let me know. But until then, don’t try to tell me that the crazies mean nothing. > [@](#): > > But aside from the specific policy issues, there are simply many, many people on the right who don’t share your ‘progressive’ vision and will fight to stop it. I’m not talking about honest opposition. I’m talking about people making shit up, and being against Obama because of that. > [@](#): > > Oh, and I must have missed your explanation of the Gallup results - not surprising since you didn’t post anything after I posted them. You posted the Gallup results in post #55 in this thread. I responded in post #59. But don’t bother with it. It wasn’t ‘anything’. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/107 "2009-10-28T14:02:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Here’s another right-wing poll, giving Hoffman an even bigger lead: [New Poll](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/politics_nation/2009/10/ny23_poll_hoffman_5.html) > > I agree with pretty much everything you said, though. Small sample size, largish margin of error, suspect impartiality. I wish there were some left-wing or mainstream polls we could use to find some balance. Unfortunately, there aren’t. > > I don’t necessarily disagree with you about what a win will do to the GOP, or even to the right in general. Splitting the party in two could be electoral disaster. And even if no 3rd party erupts out of this, if this forces the Republicans too far to the right, they’ll alienate independents again and push the power back to the Democrats. > > I guess we’ll just have to see how it all shakes out. If he doesn’t start studying local issues he is going to get absolutely creamed. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/108 "2009-10-28T14:15:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You posted the Gallup results in post #55 in this thread. I responded in post #59. > > But don’t bother with it. It wasn’t ‘anything’. 😃 The Gallup results we were talking about were from post #78. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/109 "2009-10-28T14:22:47Z")
Oh, and here’s some polling for **Sam** from the [Wall Street Journal/NBC poll](http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/wsjnbc-10272009.pdf): 43% approve of Obama’s handling of health care reform, which isn’t great, but only 23% approve of Congressional Republicans’ handling of the issue. (Q. 6a, 6b.) Barack Obama’s approval/disapproval rating is 56/33; the Democratic Party’s is 42/36, and the GOP’s is 25/46. (Q.7.) The Dems lead in the Congressional ballot question by 46-38, up from 43-40 last month. (Q. 8.) People are evenly split on whether the government needs to do more to help people, or is already doing too much. (Q.10.) While that’s obviously not a popular endorsement of “let’s do more,” it’s also not evidence of a major counterreaction against the Obama Administration’s initiatives. And specifically relevant to the premise of this thread, support for a new independent party (without specifying its nature) is about where it’s been for the past 3.5 years. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/110 "2009-10-28T14:46:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The Gallup results we were talking about were from post #78. It certainly wasn’t clear. At any rate, (a) the change in the numbers over the past 17 years isn’t that big, with most of the change being moderates’ shedding a few points in each direction, and besides, the “do you identify as a conservative, moderate, or liberal?” question is really kinda meaningless, absent some specifics as to what they mean to people. So making a big deal about that poll has the appearance of an act of desperation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/111 "2009-10-28T15:17:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I assure you as a long time Minnesotan that Michelle Bachmann is not a rising star in this state. Outside of her own district, she is regarded as an embarrassment and a joke. She could never win a state wide election, and barely held onto her own heavily conservative district in 2008. You are, of course, completely wrong about Bachmann “barely” winning her last election - her margin of victory was eight percent. much larger than, say, Barack Obama or Al Franken. I would say that your opinion as to who is a rising star in Minnesota Republican circles is rather worse than useless. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/112 "2009-10-28T15:39:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are, of course, completely wrong about Bachmann “barely” winning her last election - her margin of victory was eight percent. much larger than, say, Barack Obama or Al Franken. You are, of course, completely wrong about Bachmann’s margin of victory. According to the Office of the Secretary of State of Minnesota, [she won by 3% of the vote](http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/ElecRslts.asp?M=CG&CD=06). Barack Obama won the state by 10.2%, and the nation by 7.3%. Her margin of victory was larger than Franken’s, though. > [@](#): > > I would say that your opinion as to who is a rising star in Minnesota Republican circles is rather worse than useless. > > Regards, > Shodan I must add that she was running in a district with a [Cook PVI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_Partisan_Voting_Index) of R+7, in a state with a Cook PVI of D+3. IOW, she’d get crushed in a statewide race. So if you feel she’s a rising star in Minnesota politics, I’d say your opinion on this is rather worse than useless. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/113 "2009-10-28T15:42:46Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Let’s be real here - Sarah Palin’s “libertarianism” only applies to certain issues she thinks the government shouldn’t interfere in. Or, more precisely, “certain issues she thinks the government is not on her side” – if it were, she’d be all for bringing on the jackbooted thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/114 "2009-10-28T15:58:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Brainglutton, your source for that is almost five years old. [“State of American Political Ideology, 2009”](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/political_ideology.html) is almost five years old from your vantage point? Could you please dig up some four-year-old (from the same vantage point) sports scores and lottery numbers and PM me? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/115 "2009-10-28T16:02:37Z")
Hehe, I am glad Hoffman is above ‘Parochial issues’ (aka knowing anything about local issues) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/116 "2009-10-28T16:06:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > At any rate, (a) the change in the numbers over the past 17 years isn’t that big, with most of the change being moderates’ shedding a few points in each direction, and besides, the “do you identify as a conservative, moderate, or liberal?” question is really kinda meaningless, absent some specifics as to what they mean to people. Indeed. For example, someone who favors same-sex civil unions but draws the line at letting it be called “marriage” could consider himself “conservative” today, but could not possibly have squared that position with a “conservative” affiliation as generally understood back then. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/117 "2009-10-28T16:39:48Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [“State of American Political Ideology, 2009”](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/political_ideology.html) is almost five years old from your vantage point? > > Could you please dig up some four-year-old (from the same vantage point) sports scores and lottery numbers and PM me? Sorry, I made the same mistake **RTFirefly** did. He had earlier posted results from the 2005 Pew survey, and I conflated them. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/118 "2009-10-29T15:05:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It certainly wasn’t clear. > > At any rate, (a) the change in the numbers over the past 17 years isn’t that big, with most of the change being moderates’ shedding a few points in each direction, and besides, the “do you identify as a conservative, moderate, or liberal?” question is really kinda meaningless, absent some specifics as to what they mean to people. > > So making a big deal about that poll has the appearance of an act of desperation. [Here’s a chart](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/10/chart-day-4) of the Harris poll’s results across the decades on the conservative-moderate-liberal distribution. Like with Gallup, only over a longer period, it’s clear that not much has been happening for quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/119 "2009-10-29T22:54:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If he doesn’t start studying local issues he is going to get absolutely creamed. Has this been an issue? Because I looked it up, and as far as I can tell, he’s lived in Lake Placid since the Seventies at least, and while it’s not technically in the 23rd, it’s in a little piece of the 20th that juts into the 23rd, surrounded on three sides, with Lake Placid at the northwest corner. I’m not sure how much of a difference it would make if he lived a couple miles away on the other side of the line. [Interactive map](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/findyourreps.xpd?state=NY#) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942/120 "2009-10-29T23:12:01Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > Has this been an issue? Because I looked it up, and as far as I can tell, he’s lived in Lake Placid since the Seventies at least, and while it’s not technically in the 23rd, it’s in a little piece of the 20th that juts into the 23rd, surrounded on three sides, with Lake Placid at the northwest corner. I’m not sure how much of a difference it would make if he lived a couple miles away on the other side of the line. [Interactive map](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/findyourreps.xpd?state=NY#) Hell, I don’t live anywhere near the area but I know about their [crocodile](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139414/) problems. I hope _someone_ is addressing that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-3rd-party-forming-on-the-right/514942.md?page=7)