# Possible basis for war crimes prosecutions released by Obama administration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043 "2012-04-07T00:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/1 "2012-04-07T00:04:32Z")
Story [here](http://www.harpers.org/archive/2012/04/hbc-90008548). [QUOTE=Harper’s Magazine] Yesterday the Obama Administration, after a delay of several years, released an important document relating to the Bush Administration’s torture policies: a memorandum by Philip Zelikow, a high-ranking State Department lawyer and confidant of Condoleezza Rice, which aggressively refuted Justice Department memoranda that sought to authorize the use of thirteen “enhanced interrogation techniques” used by the CIA. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > The Zelikow memo … makes clear that the techniques the Justice Department endorsed constituted criminal conduct, and it applied the “shock the conscience” test of American constitutional law to help reach that conclusion. It could therefore be introduced as Exhibit A by prosecutors bringing future charges. I would like to discuss these questions: 1. Should Bush-era officials, at any level, be charged with war crimes, by U.S. prosecutors, for authorizing (or using) the procedures that Zelikow criticized and apparently refuted? 2. Is the Obama administration vulnerable to similar charges? I don’t think there is any doubt that these “enhanced interrogation techniques” (hereinafter referred to as EITs or just plain torture) were used by military and intelligence officers during the Bush administration, and were authorized at the highest levels. In my opinion, it would be better for the U.S. if such a trial were conducted fairly and openly by our own government, rather than by any sort of world court that might claim jurisdiction. Better for our reputation throughout the world. and better for our own country’s soul. However, it would also be better if it could be pursued in some non-partisan way, perhaps by a special prosecutor appointed by Congress, rather than by the Justice Dept. They could also pursue whether any of these same practices have been used by the current administration, and what Obama officials, if any, might also be guilty of war crimes. I think it should be done. I have not been comfortable at all with torture being done in my name, for my supposed “safety” (and for which some of my civil liberties have also been curtailed). But I am not holding my breath, and will be quite surprised if anything like this does happen. I will also be curious to see if this story generates any lasting interest in the media. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/2 "2012-04-07T00:17:50Z")
I’ll go out on a limb and say that people who torture or who order others to torture should go to prison. ---
**Author:** ![JasperST](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/76d3ee/32.png) [@JasperST](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JasperST)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/3 "2012-04-07T00:22:34Z")
All this means is that they are seriously worried about their chances in November. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/4 "2012-04-07T00:28:44Z")
They should be prosecuted and punished, but they won’t be. Remember how Obama [officially, permanently shielded the torturers](http://www.salon.com/2011/07/01/torture_51/) for their crimes? There is no hope for justice, only for the continuing victory of evil and further atrocities. It’s only going to get worse from here as America slides further and further to the Right and towards barbarism. Years from now I’m sure that we’ll look back to the good old days where we only tortured people on rare occasions and bothered to hide it. ---
**Author:** ![JasperST](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/76d3ee/32.png) [@JasperST](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JasperST)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/5 "2012-04-07T00:42:03Z")
So if Bush waterboarded someone it was a crime. If Obama shoots them in the head it’s OK. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/6 "2012-04-07T00:45:06Z")
> [@JasperST](#): > > So if Bush waterboarded someone it was a crime. If Obama shoots them in the head it’s OK. Got it. Say what? Where’d that come from? But yes; shooting someone in the head IS better than torturing them. Not that Obama is much of an improvement on Bush, including on the subject of torture. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/7 "2012-04-07T00:48:22Z")
> [@JasperST](#): > > So if Bush waterboarded someone it was a crime. If Obama shoots them in the head it’s OK. Got it. Who are you replying to? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/8 "2012-04-07T01:00:11Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > In my opinion, it would be better for the U.S. if such a trial were conducted fairly and openly by our own government, rather than by any sort of world court that might claim jurisdiction. How would a “world court” claim jurisdiction? And even if they did, how would they enforce their decision against the U.S.? Would this “world court” send troops into the U.S. to arrest Dubya? I think we all know how Bush’s Secret Service detail would react to that, to say nothing of the U.S. military’s reaction. The only circumstance in which I can see that working is if the U.S. government decided to submit to the world court’s jurisdiction. And that would be a very, very silly thing for the current sitting President to do. Not only would it be handing your political opposition a stick to beat you with, Presidents tend to be protective of Presidential power and prerogative because they know that they’ll be out of office eventually, and the political winds might start to shift the other way. > [@](#): > > Better for our reputation throughout the world. What benefit do you see from such an enhancement to the U.S.'s reputation? I doubt the U.S. would garner new allies solely because of such prosecution. I think the opposition to the U.S. is more sincere than that. I think it is usually based on the fact that they have interests that don’t align with the U.S.'s. That won’t change simply because the U.S. prosecutes alleged war criminals. > [@](#): > > and better for our own country’s soul. :dubious: > [@](#): > > However, it would also be better if it could be pursued in some non-partisan way, perhaps by a special prosecutor appointed by Congress, rather than by the Justice Dept. Good luck with that. If you thought Ken Starr was a debacle, I can’t imagine what a war crimes prosecution would be like. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/9 "2012-04-07T01:09:29Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > What benefit do you see from such an enhancement to the U.S.'s reputation? Some sort of prosecution and punishment would indicate that America actually disapproves of torture and murder, instead of just being embarrassed that what we’ve been doing became so public. Of course, we really \*don’t \*care about anything but the embarrassment, so there will be no prosecutions or even investigations. > [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > I doubt the U.S. would garner new allies solely because of such prosecution. I think the opposition to the U.S. is more sincere than that. I think it is usually based on the fact that they have interests that don’t align with the U.S.'s. That won’t change simply because the U.S. prosecutes alleged war criminals. :rolleyes: So dislike of America because of its barbaric behavior isn’t “sincere”. People don’t care if we torture and murder their friends and relatives; only about their “interests”. I think you confuse America’s sociopathic attitudes as being the human norm. For most people, torture and murder matter. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/10 "2012-04-07T01:11:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’ll go out on a limb and say that people who torture or who order others to torture should go to prison. I’ll go further out on a limb and say that anyone that uses “enhanced interrogation techniques” or condones an underling doing the same should be executed. If that means Bush spends his last moments staring down the barrels of half a dozen rifles, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![JasperST](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/76d3ee/32.png) [@JasperST](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JasperST)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/11 "2012-04-07T02:00:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But yes; shooting someone in the head IS better than torturing them. You do know that our SEALS train with waterboarding, right? I doubt many agree with you. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/12 "2012-04-07T02:29:19Z")
> [@JasperST](#): > > You do know that our SEALS train with waterboarding, right? I doubt many agree with you. > > Wow. Seals are waterboarded to prepare them for torture if captured. Your argument is utter nonsense as a defense of water boarding. ---
**Author:** ![JasperST](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/76d3ee/32.png) [@JasperST](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JasperST)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/13 "2012-04-07T03:00:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Seals are waterboarded to prepare them for torture if captured. Your argument is utter nonsense as a defense of water boarding. They are SEALS, not seals. I didn’t defend the practice, I put it in perspective. Do you know what perspective is? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/14 "2012-04-07T03:05:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But yes; shooting someone in the head IS better than torturing them. Please explain because that statement strikes me as moronic. Were you being sarcastic? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/15 "2012-04-07T03:23:24Z")
The answer to both questions is obviously no. There is nothing to be gained by domestic prosecution, and the notion of submitting to any sort of “World Court” is too stupid to dignify with reasoned response. If the current administration were foolish enough to try this before the election, they’d just hand the White House to the GoP. If Obama is reelected, doing it in his second term might get him impeached. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/16 "2012-04-07T03:32:56Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The answer to both questions is obviously no. There is nothing to be gained by domestic prosecution… I’m pretty sure “what’s in it for me?” is not generally a determining factor in deciding whether to prosecute a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/17 "2012-04-07T03:35:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m pretty sure “what’s in it for me?” is not generally a determining factor in deciding whether to prosecute a crime. At this level, you’d be wrong about that. Obama ain’t going to let this happen because doing it would be political suicide. It’s a liberal wet dream, and a poorly conceived one at that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/18 "2012-04-07T03:43:50Z")
I find it sad that you think living up to our founding values is a “liberal wet dream”. It’s obvious that Obama is not going to greenlight a prosecution, or he would have done so years ago. The question is whether the Bush Administration officials responsible for torture _should_ be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/19 "2012-04-07T03:55:20Z")
I think it is pathetic that you’d condone an unprecedented prosecution of a former POTUS to further your political agenda. That is the only potential “benefit” in play here. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/20 "2012-04-07T04:14:59Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think it is pathetic that you’d condone an unprecedented prosecution of a former POTUS to further your political agenda. That is the only potential “benefit” in play here. Are you insane? We condone a prosecution of a former President, VP, and probably a bunch of others because the committed crimes against both domestic and internationals laws and treaties. You may forget, but I haven’t, that quite a lot of prisoners died in Afghanistan and elsewhere while being interrogated. Unfortunately the only was our favorite criminals might ever face prosecution is if they ever set foot outside the US and another nation has the guts to arrest them and to deliver them to an international tribunal. Scant odds of that, though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043.md?page=2)