# Possible basis for war crimes prosecutions released by Obama administration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043 "2012-04-07T00:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/21 "2012-04-07T04:17:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I find it sad that you think living up to our founding values is a “liberal wet dream”. It’s obvious that Obama is not going to greenlight a prosecution, or he would have done so years ago. The question is whether the Bush Administration officials responsible for torture _should_ be prosecuted. I don’t see that as the question at all. There is no question in my mind that they should be prosecuted. But they won’t be – and this is just one of many disappoints I have for President Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/22 "2012-04-07T04:19:44Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think it is pathetic that you’d condone an unprecedented prosecution of a former POTUS to further your political agenda. That is the only potential “benefit” in play here. It’s got nothing to do with my political agenda, except to the extent that my agenda includes “not torturing people”. I also didn’t say anything about prosecuting Bush; I said “Bush Administration officials”. For that matter, if any Obama Administration officials authorized torture, they should also be prosecuted. Seriously, your knee is jerking so hard you might just have broken your own jaw. How _could_ prosecuting a guy who’s out of office and is already the least popular living ex-president possibly “further my agenda” (whatever it may be)? It’s obviously not a vote-winner, as you pointed out in _your own post_. If anyone here has an agenda, it’s you: you are quite blithely skipping over the whole torture thing, which suggests you’re either okay with it or just don’t want to talk about it. [QUOTE=Boyo Jim] I don’t see that as the question at all. There is no question in my mind that they should be prosecuted. But they won’t be – and this is just one of many disappoints I have for President Obama. [/QUOTE] To be honest, I’m not entirely sure how I feel about whether there should be a prosecution as a practical matter. I can’t tell where John Yoo’s bullshit ends and Bush’s willingness to accept it as justification begins. Plus, we’re not talking about Nixon; Bush and company were doing their jobs (in a sense). That said, I vaguely recall that there were CIA officials authorizing waterboardings before the administration even tried to justify it, and those acts (assuming they occurred) should absolutely be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/23 "2012-04-07T04:36:25Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think it is pathetic that you’d condone an unprecedented prosecution of a former POTUS to further your political agenda. That is the only potential “benefit” in play here. If you ask me, creating the precedent that the President of the United States will be held accountable for his criminal actions is a pretty significant benefit. If you’d done that with Nixon instead of letting him be pardoned by his own VP, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/24 "2012-04-07T05:16:37Z")
Based on the discussion so far, I want to clarify my original two questions: 1. Should Bush-era officials be charged with war crimes, i.e. torture. This is a moral, not a practical question. My take is that, morally, it should be done; as **Grumman** so cogently pointed out, it would set an excellent precedent that neither the government nor the officials thereof are _above the law_. This should be formally recognized in court. It is almost certainly not going to happen, as a purely practical matter. And it does not have to be up to the Obama administration to take any further steps, by the way. They have already done all they needed to do by releasing this memo. 1. Is the Obama administration vulnerable to similar charges? This is more a question of fact. Has the Obama administration broken U.S. or international laws in the area of torture? Or possibly as another question of judgment, as **JasperST** rather clumsily tried to point out: Does extra-judicial killing, such as the assassination of Osama bin Laden and any number of other members of Al Qaeda and other similar organizations, sink to the moral level of torture? The election is not the issue that I would like to discuss, nor are the immediate political implications. I am much more interested in the long-term effects of either course. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/25 "2012-04-07T05:40:07Z")
> [@JasperST](#): > > They are SEALS, not seals. I’m quite aware. I was on a mobile device and didn’t think explaining to you was worth the trouble of hitting capslock. > [@](#): > > I didn’t defend the practice, I put it in perspective. Do you know what perspective is? You did defend the practice, since you suggest that waterboarding wasn’t torture because we do it to SEALs. Does your pedantic nature like the lowercase “s”? I knew you would. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/26 "2012-04-07T05:46:05Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think it is pathetic that you’d condone an unprecedented prosecution of a former POTUS to further your political agenda. That is the only potential “benefit” in play here. I think it’s pathetic that you’d overlook an administration committing war-crimes because they are in your favored party. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/27 "2012-04-07T07:57:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I find it sad that you think living up to our founding values is a “liberal wet dream”. What makes you think that the beneficial treatment of prisoners of war is one of our “founding values”? Because POWs were not treated well in the US’s early wars. [Revolutionary War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War): > [@](#): > > During the American Revolutionary War (1775–83) the management and treatment of prisoners of war (POW) was very different from the standards of modern warfare. Modern standards, as outlined in the Geneva Conventions, expect captives to be held and cared for by their captors. One primary difference in the eighteenth century was that care and supplies for captives were expected to be provided by their own army, their government, or private resources. > > \ > > Neither policy, however, prevented the British from treating common American military members being held prisoner far more harshly than the standards of the day for POWs allowed. In actuality, a malicious British neglect resulted in starvation and disease slowly and torturously achieving the same results as hanging for many American prisoners, or disability and inhumane suffering for most others who were not officers or otherwise likely to be useful in prisoner exchanges. > > \ > > The British solution to this problem was to use obsolete, captured, or damaged ships as prisons. Conditions were appalling, and many more Americans died of neglect while imprisoned than were killed in battle. While the Continental Army named a commissary to supply them, the task was almost impossible. Elias Boudinot, as one of these commissaries, was competing with other agents seeking to gather supplies for George Washington’s army at Valley Forge. > > During the war, at least 16 hulks, including the infamous HMS Jersey, were placed by British authorities in the waters of Wallabout Bay off the shores of Brooklyn, New York as a place of incarceration for many thousands of American soldiers and sailors during about 1776–83. The prisoners were harassed and abused by guards who, with little success, offered release to those who agreed to serve in the British Navy. Over 10,000 of these prisoners died from neglect. Their corpses were often tossed overboard, though sometimes they were buried in shallow graves along the eroding shoreline. Many of the remains became exposed or were washed up and recovered by local residents over the years and later interred nearby in the Prison Ship Martyrs’ Monument at Fort Greene Park, once the scene of a portion of the Battle of Long Island. [Civil War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andersonville_prison): > [@](#): > > In all, 12,913 of the approximately 45,000 Union prisoners died there because of starvation, malnutrition, diarrhea, disease, alleged abuse and blunt weapon executions from guards. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/28 "2012-04-07T08:06:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Some sort of prosecution and punishment would indicate that America actually disapproves of torture and murder, instead of just being embarrassed that what we’ve been doing became so public. Assuming that the laws on the books and condemnation of those practices by the Obama admin haven’t indicated that America disapproves of torture and murder, what would be the benefit of such an enhancement of the US’s reputation? > [@](#): > > So dislike of America because of its barbaric behavior isn’t “sincere”. People don’t care if we torture and murder their friends and relatives; only about their “interests”. I never said that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/29 "2012-04-07T08:18:20Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > Assuming that the laws on the books and condemnation of those practices by the Obama admin haven’t indicated that America disapproves of torture and murder, what would be the benefit of such an enhancement of the US’s reputation? We’d have fewer enemies, and fewer Americans would indulge in such behavior if they didn’t know the government and public approved of it. And (among other things) the Obama Administration officially permanently shielding the torturers from any investigation or prosecution demonstrates quite clearly that he at best doesn’t care about torture, and probably approves of it. > [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > I never said that. You certainly imply it. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/30 "2012-04-07T11:39:28Z")
Couldn’t Obama issue a blanket pardon for all crimes committed by (all) previous administrations? Of course if I were in his place I’d wait until the upcoming election is finished. ---
**Author:** ![JasperST](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/76d3ee/32.png) [@JasperST](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JasperST)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/31 "2012-04-07T12:34:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m quite aware. I was on a mobile device and didn’t think explaining to you was worth the trouble of hitting capslock. > > You did defend the practice, since you suggest that waterboarding wasn’t torture because we do it to SEALs. Does your pedantic nature like the lowercase “s”? I knew you would. Hey, you can access Wikipedia. Good for you. I didn’t actually suggest anything, just made a statement of fact. Those with the political agenda are doing the speculating. Whether waterboarding is torture or not isn’t for me to say, I thought it actually had been ruled on years ago. I guess the ruling was unsatisfactory so we need to revisit the issue, redefine it and prosecute since the current administration can’t run on its’ record. Have you even been to boot camp? I would have traded waterboarding for quite a bit of it. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/32 "2012-04-07T13:36:23Z")
> [@JasperST](#): > > I thought it actually had been ruled on years ago When it was done to US citizens by foreign countries, it was torture and the punishment for the commission of that [torture was death](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml). > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > Please explain because that statement strikes me as moronic. I’d rather face a quick execution than the possibility of being tortured for an indefinite period of time at the whim of my captors. In fact, torture is almost always considered a war crime, whereas execution usually isn’t (assuming a trial is given). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/33 "2012-04-07T14:12:54Z")
Cripes, are you people **still** on this shit? If Obama is running against a candidate who isn’t in the race, again, maybe he is more worried than I thought he was. Not that he’s rather transparently pandering to his base - oh no, not at all. I suppose making some noises about overturning DOMA (without actually doing anything) is next. Anything to distract the electorate from the latest fat headedness from Mr. “How Dare the Supreme Court Suggest Overturning My Only Domestic Accomplishment, Such as It Is”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/34 "2012-04-07T14:51:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cripes, are you people **still** on this shit? > > If Obama is running against a candidate who isn’t in the race, again, maybe he is more worried than I thought he was. > > Not that he’s rather transparently pandering to his base - oh no, not at all. I suppose making some noises about overturning DOMA (without actually doing anything) is next. > > Anything to distract the electorate from the latest fat headedness from Mr. “How Dare the Supreme Court Suggest Overturning My Only Domestic Accomplishment, Such as It Is”. > > Regards, > Shodan The trouble here is, since you don’t agree with the stated principle, that is to say, “America shouldn’t torture people” you don’t think anyone should be punished for that transgression. It’s fine if you think torture is okay, but we, as a country, need to be better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/35 "2012-04-07T15:05:01Z")
No, the trouble is that Democrats are obsessed with getting revenge on Bush for winning the elections. It’s petty, it’s stupid, I am hopeful that in 2012 it will be counter-productive, but apparently the Dems can’t think of anything except BushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBad. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/36 "2012-04-07T15:15:15Z")
What I think should have been done was some sort of truth and reconcilliation hearings back in 2009. It should have been as non-partisan as possible under the circumstances; it should not have been directed at legal prosecutions; it should have sought to publically expose all of the wrong acts done by the American government and its representatives between 2001 and 2009; and it should have been part of a complete and public disavowal of these wrong acts as instruments of government. Basically it should have been a public admission that we, as a nation, did something wrong without an attempt to target individuals. But bringing it up now? This makes it look like an election year issue. Something as terrible as torture should not be reduced to a partisan political issue. And even as a partisan political issue, it’s a bad idea. If the Obama administration tries to make this into an “us vs them” wedge issue it’s very likely to blow up in their face. Between 2001 and 2009, for better or worse (although mostly worse as it turned out) the Bush administration was the government of the United States. Attacking the Bush administration could easily end up looking like an attack on the United States. The public could end up rallying behind the Republicans in a feeling of “our country, right or wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/37 "2012-04-07T15:18:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, the trouble is that Democrats are obsessed with getting revenge on Bush for winning the elections. It’s petty, it’s stupid, I am hopeful that in 2012 it will be counter-productive, but apparently the Dems can’t think of anything except BushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBad. Not at all like the Republicans, who keep comparing Barack Obama to Jimmy Carter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/38 "2012-04-07T15:18:44Z")
How are people getting that this is Obama playing politics with the issue? If they are, they are doing a terrible job. I haven’t read word one about this in the MSM and would be surprised if even one in a thousand Americans know anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/39 "2012-04-07T15:21:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, the trouble is that Democrats are obsessed with getting revenge on Bush for winning the elections. I’m not sure there should be a “s” at the end of election. 😃 In any case, you think that war crimes should go unpunished. We understand. I suspect that this wouldn’t be the case if the president in question were a Democrat. > [@](#): > > It’s petty, it’s stupid, I am hopeful that in 2012 it will be counter-productive, but apparently the Dems can’t think of anything except BushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBad. Hardly. But the memo did just come out. Do you want us to address it four years ago when it was hidden? Tell me, do you think, in the abstract, that presidents can’t commit crimes? Would you have supported prosecutions for Watergate? How about if a president had a political rival shot? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/40 "2012-04-07T15:36:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, the trouble is that Democrats are obsessed with getting revenge on Bush for winning the elections. It’s petty, it’s stupid, I am hopeful that in 2012 it will be counter-productive, but apparently the Dems can’t think of anything except BushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBadBushBad. No. We do think Bush was bad, and we don’t think there should be a statute of limitations on torture crimes, but that’s hardly all that Democrats are talking about, and to suggest otherwise is inexcusably inane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043.md?page=3)